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$\newcommand{\lorentzian}{\mathrm{lorentzian}}\newcommand{\lorentzian}{\mathrm{lorentzian}}\newcommand{\diff}{\mathrm{diff}}\newcommand{\manifold}{\mathrm{manifold}}$Take a time-oriented Lorentzian manifold $(M, g)$ that is not strongly causal.

The Lorentzian metric $g$, however can define a topology, that is strictly coarser than that of the manifold topology. Say: $\tau_{\lorentzian} \subsetneqq \tau_{\manifold}$.

The topology can be found at this post: Lorentzian Topology

Assume I have two Lorentzian time-oriented manifolds $(M_1,g_1)$, $(M_2,g_2)$ that are not strongly causal, but are homeomorphic under their Lorentzian topologies $(M_1, \tau_{\lorentzian}) \cong (M_2, \tau_{\lorentzian} )$.

My 1st question:

Is it possible that $M_1$ and $M_2$ are not diffeomorphic as differentiable manifolds (with the manifold topology and NOT the Lorentzian topology) $(M_1, \diff) \not\equiv (M_2, \diff) $ while $(M_1, \tau_{\lorentzian}) \cong (M_2, \tau_{\lorentzian} )$ as topological spaces?

My 2nd question:

Is it possible for the $\tau_{\lorentzian}$ not to be antidiscrete?

NOTE: the differential structure in $(M, \diff)$ is exactly the one underlying the Lorentzian manifold.

NOTE: to be more physically sound, one can name the $\tau_{lorenzian}$ topology, also $\tau_{observers}$ topology.

Even an example of such a scenario would be extremely of use!


Physical motivation:

If such distinct differentiable manifolds that induce the same topology via their Lorentzian metric exist, one can define an entropy for the Lorentzian topology by counting the distinct diffeomorphism classes say $w$ and write $S=k_B \ln(w) $ by Boltzmann's relation. And causality will be emergent rather than fundamental, so to speak.

This can potentially give rise to a cosmological arrow of time or entropic time if not also quantum non-locality in case one interprets the differential and topological degrees of freedom as the Hidden Variables of Quantum Mechanics!

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    $\begingroup$ I dont know anything about this, but in the question you linked there is an example where the topology is the indiscrete topology. If you cook up another non-diffeomorphic manifold with this property, which shouldnt be too hard, you will have your example $\endgroup$
    – Thomas Rot
    Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 21:08
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    $\begingroup$ @ThomasRot: the example given works with $\mathbb{S}^1 \times \mathbb{R}^n$ for any $n \geq 1$ (the spatial part can have arbitrary dimensions). So just take $M_1$ and $M_2$ two such manifolds with distinct dimensions. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 31, 2023 at 14:45
  • $\begingroup$ @WillieWong very interesting. But given that the topology is quite extreme case, I just am afraid this can not be generalized to more generic(physically friendly! or common sense) topologies. In Physics generic observers(read neighbourhoods as a mathematician) are local(mostly in its strict sense) and not global. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 31, 2023 at 14:55
  • $\begingroup$ It appears your question has been answered in the comments. Would you agree? $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 31, 2023 at 21:46
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    $\begingroup$ @BastamTajik: As far as having $4$-manifolds, this seems trivial: given any connected Riemannian manifolds $M,N$, $S^1\times M$ and $S^1\times N$ have the obvious Lorentzian structure which makes the Lorentzian topology antidiscrete, making the two homeomorphic (since they both have the cardinality of the continuum). I'm not sure if $M,N$ not being diffeomorphic is sufficient for $S^1\times M$ and $S^1\times N$ not to be diffeomorphic either, but this is definitely true for example if they have distinct fundamental groups. $\endgroup$
    – tomasz
    Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 10:32

1 Answer 1

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I would like to argue that the situation considered in the comments is "close to generic".

Let $(M,g)$ be a Lorentzian manifold that is not strongly causal; this implies that $(M,g)$ is also not stably causal, and hence a small perturbation of it will admit a closed time-like curve. We may therefore assume generically that our $(M,g)$ admits a closed time-like curve $\gamma$.

Choose $p\in \gamma$, we have therefore $\gamma\subset I^+(p)$ and $\gamma\subset I^-(p)$; hence the set $U_\gamma = I^+(p) \cap I^-(p)$ is non-empty, and must be contained in every "Lorentzian neighborhood" of $p$. In particular, the "Lorentzian topology" must be non-Hausdorff.

As $\gamma$ is compact, it has a tubular neighborhood within $U_\gamma$ that is topologically $\mathbb{S}^1 \times B^n$ where $n$ is the spatial dimension. Let $t\in \mathbb{S}^1$ and $x\in B^n$ provide a set of coordinates for this tubular neighborhood; we can arrange for $\partial_t$ to be time-like on this neighborhood.

Now take an $n$-dimensional manifold $D$ with boundary, whose boundary is $\mathbb{S}^{n-1}$, with non-trivial topology. Equip $D$ with a Riemannian metric. Carve out the tubular neighborhood of $\gamma$ and replace it (smoothly glue in) a copy of $\mathbb{S}^1\times D$, equipped with the product Lorentzian metric.

As this modification is entirely within $U_\gamma$, and one easily sees that for every $q_1, q_2\in \mathbb{S}^1\times D$, there exists a time-like curve connecting the two, we see that the Lorentzian topology of the modified manifold is the same as the original. But as long as $M$ doesn't have too crazy a topology the modified manifold should not be diffeomorphic to the original.

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    $\begingroup$ In particular, I don't think you can "count the number of distinct diffeomorphism classes". $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 6:39
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    $\begingroup$ @BastamTajik: That is very weird terminology. When no two points can be distinguished, the topology is usually called one of: trivial, indiscrete, antidiscrete. Anyway, in this answer, clearly it means that it is not Hausdorff. $\endgroup$
    – tomasz
    Commented Sep 2, 2023 at 20:13
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    $\begingroup$ @BastamTajik: I don't see why not, but my knowledge of Lorentzian geometry is rather superficial, so I cannot really say that with any degree of confidence. $\endgroup$
    – tomasz
    Commented Sep 3, 2023 at 15:14
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    $\begingroup$ @Bastam How are you defining $U_\gamma$? In my answer $U_\gamma$ may be a strict subset of $I^+(\gamma) \cap I^-(\gamma)$ and hence do not exhaust all problematic points. In terms of "is it possible" the answer is obviously yes, and you can cook up easy examples. But I suppose your question is more "is it always the case"? In this case you need to make a much more precise definition. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 4, 2023 at 2:05
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    $\begingroup$ For example, I can easily imagine a setting where a point $p$ does not belong on any closed timelike curves, but $\tau_{Lorentzian}$ is still "bad" at $p$. This is related to the fact that strongly causal spacetimes need not be stably causal, and in general, if $N$ is an open subset of $M$, then the "Lorentzian topology of $N$ with respect to the induced metric on $N$" is not necessarily equal to the "subspace topology on $N$ of the Lorentzian topology on $M$". $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 4, 2023 at 2:10

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