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In the hyperreal field, we can use Taylor series to express e^(ε) and e^(ω) as:

e^(ε) = 1 + ε + (ε^2)/2! + ...

e^(ω) = 1 + ω + (ω^2)/2! + ...

Is it similarly possible to express ln(ε) and ln(ω) as infinite sums in terms of ε and ω?

Since 0 = ln(1) = ln(ε*ω) = ln(ε) + ln(ω), we know ln(ε) = -ln(ω), so once we find one expression we can find the other.

For instance:

e^(ω) = 1 + ω + (ω^2)/2! + ...

ln(e^(ω)) = ln(1 + ω + (ω^2)/2! + ...)

ω = ln(1 + ω + (ω^2)/2! + ...)

from which we can derive a cheap answer:

ln(ω) = ln(ln(1 + ω + (ω^2)/2! + ...))

But I'm curious if ln(ω) can be expressed in terms of ω without the logarithm?

We see ln(ω) < ln(1 + ω + (ω^2)/2! + ...) = ω

which implies ln(ω) is possibly an infinite sum of roots of ω, such as:

ln(ω) = ω^(1/2) + ω^(1/3) + ...

or some such series.

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  • $\begingroup$ Noble, this relates back to your previous post about ln(ω) in 2022. mathoverflow.net/questions/414730/… $\endgroup$
    – euclidub
    Commented Nov 18 at 5:05
  • $\begingroup$ That post was about the surreals, not hte hyperreals. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 18 at 11:38
  • $\begingroup$ @Mikhail, thank you for helping me clarify my question. Yes, my question is about the hyperreals, and I was piggybacking off of a previous post about the surreals. My understanding is that the field of hyperreals is a subfield of the field of surreals, so I was hoping my question was related. $\endgroup$
    – euclidub
    Commented Nov 18 at 16:40
  • $\begingroup$ $\ln (x+1)= x-x^2/2+x^3/3-x^4/4+x^5/5-...$ $\endgroup$
    – Anixx
    Commented Nov 19 at 18:16

3 Answers 3

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To help avoid any misunderstanding that may arise for readers of this question, let me say that when understood in the usual sense, there are no nontrivial convergent sequences or series at all in the hyperreal numbers (and neither in the surreal numbers).

The reason is that the hyperreal numbers are usually understood to be countably saturated. This has a model-theoretic definition, meaning that every finitely realized type with countably many parameters is realized. But in the case of ordered fields, it can be expressed as the following property: whenever $$x_0\leq x_1\leq x_2\leq\cdots \leq y_2\leq y_1\leq y_0$$ with $x_n<y_n$ for all $n\in\mathbb{N}$, then there is a number $z$ in between $$x_0\leq x_1\leq x_2\leq\cdots <z< \cdots \leq y_2\leq y_1\leq y_0.$$

This saturation property prevents any nontrivial convergent sequence $x_n\to x$, unless it is eventually constant, since there will be various numbers $z$ in between, on each side.

Indeed, every countable set of hyperreal numbers is discrete in the hyperreal order. For this reason, one cannot apply any of the usual treatment of sequences and series from the real numbers in the hyperreal field.

Meanwhile, there is nevertheless a robust theory of sequences and series in the hyperreals, but using sequences and series indexed instead by $\mathbb{N}^*$, the nonstandard natural numbers, instead of merely $\mathbb{N}$. With this change, one can form hyperreal analogues of all the familiar sequences and series in the reals. The reason is that by the transfer principle, every assertion made in the real numbers about any such sequence or series is also true exactly the same in the nonstandard realm.

Thus, the radius of convergent of the nonstandard analogue of a power series remains the same as what it was.

For example, the series $$\sum_{n\in\mathbb{N}}\frac 1{2^n}=\frac12+\frac14+\cdots+\frac1{2^n}+\cdots$$ does not converge in the hyperreals, since one is using the natural numbers only. But the much longer (uncountably so) series $$\sum_{n\in\mathbb{N}^*}\frac 1{2^n}=\frac12+\frac14+\cdots+\frac1{2^n}+\cdots+\cdots=1$$ does converge to $1$.

In my essay on the surreal numbers, an elementary introduction, I mentioned this situation as a possible red flag for surreal calculus. To do calculus with the surreal numbers (or the hyperreals), one simply cannot expect to use sequences and series and convergence ideas in the same manner that one does with the real numbers. Rather, one must in a sense remount calculus entirely bottom-up on the new setting, using infinitesimals, saturation, and transfer.

Some accounts of nonstandard analysis seem to provide a way to avoid the issue by simply treating $\mathbb{N}^*$ as the genuine natural numbers, and then talking some the standard numbers as a special kind of number. In this way of speaking, the subject of nonstandard analysis is concerned with sequences and series, even though the index set is uncountable by the usual way of talking. In my experience, however, this practice often leads to confusion when mathematicians from other areas join in. And so I find it best to be clear about what one means.

(Lastly, let me add that unless one adopts additional axioms, it is not usually correct to refer to "the" hyperreals, since we have no categorical such structure. But see my recent paper How CH could have been a fundamental axiom for more about how it could have been different.)

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    $\begingroup$ By "hardcore standard analysis people" do you mean perhaps nonstandard analysis people (like Nelson)? $\endgroup$
    – Zhen Lin
    Commented Nov 19 at 4:21
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    $\begingroup$ Oops, yes, but also M Katz,who has also answered here. I have edited. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 19 at 5:04
  • $\begingroup$ (Regarding your parenthetical comment about "the" hyperreals, couldn't the same be said of "the" class $V$ of all sets and "the" category of sets? And could our history have been different regarding those? Sorry if this is slightly off topic. I enjoyed reading your paper on CH.) $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 19 at 6:27
  • $\begingroup$ @JesseElliott No, this is a different kind of independence. In ZFC, we can prove that there is a unique class of all sets, just like we can prove there is a unique complete ordered field up to isomorphism and a unique model of Dedekind arithmetic up to isomorphism. But we have no such account in ZFC of "the" hyperreals. We are lacking a categorical theory. (But in ZFC+CH, there is such a categorical account--the hyperreals are the smallest countably saturated real-closed field.) $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 19 at 6:32
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    $\begingroup$ Which logic are you applying the Beth definability theorem to? How would the undefinability of st imply the existence of distinct notions of standardness? Are you saying that it implies it, or merely that this would be consistent with IST? $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 20 at 9:57
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For positive $\epsilon$, the expression $\ln \epsilon$ will be equal to its power series at $x=1$ (in the $\delta, N$ sense).

To help avoid any misunderstanding that may arise for readers of this question, let me say that when understood in the usual $\delta, N$ sense, there are indeed nontrivial convergent sequences in the hyperreal numbers (though perhaps not in the surreal numbers).

Indeed, since $\epsilon>0$ is in the open disk of convergence at the point $1$, the usual condition will hold namely that for every $\delta>0$ there exists and $N>0$ such that partial sums of length at least $N$ will be within $\delta$ of the value $\ln \epsilon$. Of course, for nonstandard points one may have to choose a nonstandard $N$, as in our case.

This follows by applying the transfer principle. As far as $\ln \omega$ is concerned, it certainly cannot be given by a power series because $\omega$ falls outside the radius of convergence, seeing that $\omega>2$.

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  • $\begingroup$ Thank you, @Mikhail. I agree the value of ln(ε) can be found using the power series at x = 1: ln(ε) = (ε-1) + (-1/2)(ε - 1)^2 + (1/3)(ε-1)^3 + (-1/4)(ε-1)^4 + ... which simplifies to a sum of powers of ε, yielding the standard part: St[ln(ε)] = -1 - 1/2 - 1/3 - ... However, while ω falls outside of the radius of convergence, we still have the log identity ln(ω) = ln(ε^(-1)) = -ln(ε) which implies ln(ω) = - ( ln(ε) ) giving St[ln(ω)] = 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + .... I am wondering if the log identity gives a valid workaround to find ln(ω). $\endgroup$
    – euclidub
    Commented Nov 18 at 17:16
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    $\begingroup$ Since the standard part is only defined for limited numbers, it cannot be applied to $\ln \epsilon$ which is unlimited. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 19 at 8:09
  • $\begingroup$ Thank you, @Mikhail. Setting the standard part aside, does the log identity hold, ln(ω) = -ln(ε), such that even though ω is outside the radius of convergence, we can nevertheless define a series that sums to ln(w), namely ln(w) = -ln(ε) ? $\endgroup$
    – euclidub
    Commented Nov 19 at 14:14
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    $\begingroup$ If $\epsilon>0$ is infinitesimal and $\omega=\frac{1}{\epsilon}$ then by the transfer principle $\ln \omega = -\ln \epsilon$. This has nothing to do with power series expansions. Once we have this identity, we can bypass the radius of convergence issue, and express $\ln\omega$ as a power series in $\epsilon$ (just by chaning the sign). $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 19 at 14:58
  • $\begingroup$ Thank you, @Mikhail! This answers my original question, which I admit I might not have asked well. This is my first time posting on StackExchange. So, the answer to my question is: Yes, we can express ln(ω) as a power series because ln(ω) = -ln(ϵ). And in general, for any number m > 1 that falls outside of the radius of convergence, we can express ln(m) as a power series in terms of 1/m because: since m > 1, we have -1 < 1/m - 1 < 0, which means (1/m - 1) is inside the radius of conv., which means: ln(m) = -ln(1/m) = -ln(1 + (-1 + 1/m)) can be expressed with a power series. Yes? $\endgroup$
    – euclidub
    Commented Nov 19 at 17:05
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I will propose an answer my question. Please let me know if I have spoken accurately.

Within the hyperreal field (that is, the most traditional hyperreal field as described by some of the original texts on the subject by Robinson, Goldblatt, Keisler, and Henle), can we express ln(ϵ) and ln(ω) as a power series in terms of ϵ and/or ω? (That is, where ϵ is infinitesimal, ω is infinite, and ϵ = 1/ω.)

Yes:

ln(ω) = (1-ϵ) + ((1-ϵ)^2)/2 + ((1-ϵ)^3)/3 + ((1-ϵ)^4)/4 + ....

ln(ϵ) = -(1-ϵ) + -((1-ϵ)^2)/2 + -((1-ϵ)^3)/3 + -((1-ϵ)^4)/4 + ....

These results are indeed related by the log identity ln(ω) = -ln(ϵ), but can both be derived independently from the Taylor series for natural logarithm

ln(1 + x) = x - (x^2)/2 + (x^3)/4 - (x^4)/4 + ...

whose radius of convergence is |x| < 1 and x = 1.

PROOF:

First, find ln(ϵ).

Since the infinitesimal ϵ is in the radius of convergence, we can directly let x = -1 + ϵ:

ln(ϵ) = ln(1 + (-1+ϵ)) = (-1+ϵ) - ((-1+ϵ)^2)/2 + ((-1+ϵ)^3)/3 - ((-1+ϵ)^4)/4 + ...

We can rewrite this expression more neatly as:

ln(ϵ) = -(1-ϵ) - ((1-ϵ)^2)/2 - ((1-ϵ)^3)/3 - ((1-ϵ)^4)/4 - ...

After expanding the right side and gathering all the standard terms, we see an expression that clearly diverges to negative infinity as expected:

ln(ϵ) = -1 - 1/2 - 1/3 - 1/4 - .... + (all of the non-standard terms)

Second, find ln(ω).

To do this, I will derive a transformed Taylor series for ln(m) whose radius of convergence is any real number m > 1.
Assuming m > 1, we have 1 > 1/m > 0, which can be rewritten as 0 > -1 + 1/m > -1.
Therefore, (-1 + 1/m) is within the radius of convergence of the Taylor series used above.
Thus, we can rewrite ln(m) as:

ln(m) = ln((1/m)^-1) = -ln(1/m) = -ln(1 + (-1 + 1/m))

and can now use the given Taylor series using x = -1 + 1/m:

ln(m) = -ln( 1 + (-1 + 1/m)) = (1-1/m) + ((1-1/m)^2)/2 + ((1-1/m)^3)/3 + ((1-1/m)^4)/4 + ....

This is a convenient result in and of itself because radius of convergence of this Taylor series for ln(m) is any real m > 1.

By transfer principle, since ω > 1, we can use ln(m) to find:

ln(ω) = (1-1/ω) + ((1-1/ω)^2)/2 + ((1-1/ω)^3)/3 + ((1-1/ω)^4)/4 + ....

and since 1/ω = ϵ, we have:

ln(ω) = (1-ϵ) + ((1-ϵ)^2)/2 + ((1-ϵ)^3)/3 + ((1-ϵ)^4)/4 + ....

which is indeed the opposite sign of the result for ln(ϵ):

ln(ϵ) = -(1-ϵ) + -((1-ϵ)^2)/2 + -((1-ϵ)^3)/3 + -((1-ϵ)^4)/4 + ....

In both cases, after expanding the terms and gathering all the standard terms, we see expressions that clearly diverge to infinity as expected:

ln(ϵ) = -1 - 1/2 - 1/3 - 1/4 - .... + (all of the non-standard terms in terms of ϵ)

ln(ω) = 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + .... + (all of the non-standard terms in terms of ϵ)

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    $\begingroup$ I didn't downvote, but you can't "gather all the standard terms" because there are infinitely many terms in the sum. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 20 at 9:29
  • $\begingroup$ @MikhailKatz, thank you; I really appreciate your continued feedback. I see how my use of "gathering terms" was not precise. I was trying to make clear that the value of ln(ω) diverges based solely on the sum of the harmonic series, without there being any 'ω' terms in the expansion. Other than that detail, was my analysis of ln(ω) and ln(ϵ) otherwise correct? Did I correctly transform the power series for log(1+x) (with radius |x|<1) into the power series for log(m) (with radius m>1)? Ultimately, is it fair to say ln(ω) = (1-ϵ) + ((1-ϵ)^2)/2 + ... and ln(ϵ) = -(1-ϵ) + -((1-ϵ)^2)/2 + ... ? $\endgroup$
    – euclidub
    Commented Nov 20 at 16:59
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, when $\epsilon$ is interpreted as a hyperreal infinitesimal and $\omega$ its hyperreal inverse (certainly not the countable ordinal/cardinal). $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 21 at 12:23
  • $\begingroup$ Thank you!!! I appreciate your help, @MikhailKatz $\endgroup$
    – euclidub
    Commented Nov 21 at 16:23

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