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If we say that an effectively generated first order theory $\sf T$ extends $\sf ZF$, such that every countable model of $\sf T$ doesn't have a class forcing extension that is pointwise definable. Would that just mean that $\sf T$ negates Choice? Or it does impart $\sf T$ proving some large cardinal property?

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    $\begingroup$ When you say "forcing extension", does this include class forcing? That is what is needed for the arguments of my paper with Linetsky and Reitz. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 3, 2023 at 17:36
  • $\begingroup$ @JoelDavidHamkins, yes, of course. I’ve edited it. Thanks! $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 3, 2023 at 19:03

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If $T$ is a theory which proves "there is no extension of the model to a model of $\sf ZFC$ without adding ordinals", then there is no extension of models of $T$ by a class forcing to a pointwise definable model, since pointwise definable models must satisfy $\sf ZFC$.

The obvious example is Gitik's model, but we also have the Morris model where no large cardinals are involved, and for every $\alpha$ there is a set $A_\alpha$ which is the countable union of countable sets and $\mathcal P(A_\alpha)$ surjects onto $\omega_\alpha$. If we extended the Morris model to a model of $\sf ZFC$, then all the $A_\alpha$ became countable and all their power sets became the same size and therefore proper classes.

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  • $\begingroup$ In the first line "there is no extension of the model" of what theory??? $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 9:33
  • $\begingroup$ Of $T$????????? $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 10:00
  • $\begingroup$ You mean $T$ is an effectively generated FOL that extends ZFC and that proves that "there is no extension of a model of $T$ to a model of ZFC without adding ordinals". Isn't that inconsistent? Any model of $T$ extends to itself. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 10:39
  • $\begingroup$ Your question is about theories extending ZF. I don't know how you conclude from "$T$ proves that there is no extension of the universe to a universe of ZFC without adding ordinals" to $T$ extends ZFC. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 10:59
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    $\begingroup$ It implies there is a class generic extension satisfying AC, so in a sense, yes. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Jan 4, 2023 at 11:18

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