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Let $\mathsf{ZF^-_2}$ be a second-order ZF without Powerset, and the second-order Collection in place of Replacement. It is easy to see that every transitive model of $\mathsf{ZF^-_2}$ is closed under subsets of its elements.

Moreover, we can show in $\mathsf{ZFC}$ that every transitive model of $\mathsf{ZF^-_2}$ is $H_\kappa$ for some regular $\kappa$:

Proof. Let $\kappa=\sup\{|x|:x\in A\}$, then $A\subseteq H_\kappa$. By second-order Replacement with the induction, we have $\alpha\in H_\kappa$ if $\alpha<\kappa$. Applying second-order separation, we can see that $A$ and $H_\kappa$ agrees on its sets of ordinals. Hence $A=H_\kappa$.

My question is:

Is it consistent with $\mathsf{ZF}$ that $A$ is a transitive model of $\mathsf{ZF^-_2}$, but $A\neq H_\kappa$ for any cardinal $\kappa$?

Since the notion $H_\kappa$ is not unique in the choiceless setting, the answer could depend on the formulation of $H_\kappa$. (I know there are at least two definitions of it: one of them is that of Aspero and Karagila, and the other one is that of Lubarsky and Rathjen.)

Note that, Lubarsky and Rathjen proved the following: if $A$ is a transitive set such that $2\in A$ and $A$ satisfies Union and second-order Replacement, then the ordinal $$o(A) = \min\{\alpha\mid\alpha\notin A\}$$ is regular. (Lemma 2.4 of Lubarsky and Rathjen.) Hence the following strategy does not work: construct a model that thinks every cardinal is singular but there is a transitive model of $\mathsf{ZF^-_2}$.

I would appreciate any help!

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  • $\begingroup$ Apparently there's also one due to Randall Holmes, for which $H_\kappa$ would contain only well orderable sets; but presumably $H_{V_\kappa}$ might work. And there's Gabe Goldberg's definition, but that one is a bit like Holmes' when using $V_\kappa$ instead of $\kappa$, I think, but probably not really the same. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Nov 22, 2020 at 13:55
  • $\begingroup$ @Asaf Holmes' definition could be the same as that of Lubarsky and Rathjen up to some modifications (like replacing $<\kappa$ to $\kappa$), as both of them refer to the same Jech's paper (but I do not check it yet.) Also, I wonder how I can find Goldberg's definition. $\endgroup$
    – Hanul Jeon
    Commented Nov 22, 2020 at 14:03
  • $\begingroup$ He mentioned it in his Bristol-Oxford talk. $H_\kappa$ is the union of all transitive sets which are the image of $V_\alpha$ for $\alpha<\kappa$. I think this one works better in the context of large cardinals, though. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Nov 22, 2020 at 14:06
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    $\begingroup$ It was mentioned at the end, during the questions part. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Nov 22, 2020 at 14:15
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    $\begingroup$ Looking at the Lubarsky–Rathjen definition, it seems that their $H(V_\kappa)$ is the same as Goldberg's $H_\kappa$. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Nov 22, 2020 at 16:55

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