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Let $\lambda<\kappa$ be cardinals and consider the forcing $\operatorname{Col}(\lambda,\kappa)$ adding a generic surjection $\lambda\to\kappa$. More formally, $\operatorname{Col}(\lambda,\kappa)$ is the set of all partial functions $p\colon\lambda\to\kappa$ such that $|p|<\lambda$. It is well-known that $\operatorname{Col}(\lambda,\kappa)$ preserves cardinals less than equal to $\lambda$, but its proof uses choice. (More specifically, we need $\lambda$-$\mathsf{DC}$.)

Question. Can we prove $\operatorname{Col}(\lambda,\kappa)$ preserves cardinals $\le\lambda$ from $\mathsf{ZF}$ alone?

The question is trivial if $\lambda=\omega$, but I am interested in the case when $\lambda$ is a singular cardinal of cofinality $\omega$, and $\kappa$ is inaccessible. (We say $\kappa$ is inaccessible if $V_\kappa$ is a model of the second-order $\mathsf{ZF}$.)

Also, is there any forcing adding a surjection $\lambda\to \kappa$ that also preserves cardinals below $\lambda$ in a choiceless context?

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    $\begingroup$ BOOOOOO!!!!!!!! "$\lambda$-$\sf DC$"? BOOO!!!! $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 4, 2023 at 0:30
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    $\begingroup$ What do you mean "interested in the case where $\lambda$ is a singular cardinal of cofinality $\omega$"? This case isn't even well-behaved in ZFC. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 4, 2023 at 0:32
  • $\begingroup$ @AsafKaragila calm down ;-P Is it notation you object to, or the fragment of Choice? ^_^ $\endgroup$
    – David Roberts
    Commented Dec 4, 2023 at 0:40
  • $\begingroup$ @DavidRoberts: Definitely the notation. :-P (And I'll add that the notation is already fragmented and fractured enough around AC following several decades where nobody wanted to admit openly researching it, so everyone came up with different terms and notation for stuff, and then insisted it's fine to not converge on a uniform notation and terminology.) $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 4, 2023 at 0:40
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    $\begingroup$ @AsafKaragila if only we knew we could choose a consistent notation among all the various options for each principle!! $\endgroup$
    – David Roberts
    Commented Dec 4, 2023 at 0:45

2 Answers 2

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Re the first question: No. Suppose $\lambda$ is a singular cardinal of cofinality $\omega$. Then the forcing collapses all cardinals $\leq\lambda$. For let $\left<A_n\right>_{n<\omega}\in V$ be a partition of $\lambda$ into sets $A_n$, each of cardinality ${<\lambda}$, and with $\mathrm{ordertype}(A_n)<\mathrm{ordertype}(A_{n+1})$. In $V[G]$, where $G:\lambda\to\kappa$ is the generic surjection, let $F:\omega\to\lambda$ be the function computed as follows: Let $X_n=(G``A_n)\cap\lambda$. Then $G\upharpoonright A_n\in V$, so $X_n\in V$ and $X_n$ has cardinality $<\lambda$ (in $V$). Let $\gamma_n$ be the least ordinal $\notin X_n$, so $\gamma<\lambda$. If $X_n=\gamma_n$ let $F(n)=0$. If $X_n\neq\gamma_n$, let $\delta_n$ be the least $\delta>\gamma_n$ such that $\delta\in X_n$. So $[\gamma_n,\delta_n)\cap X_n=\emptyset$ and $\gamma_n\cup\{\delta_n\}\subseteq X_n$. Now define $F(n)$ to be the ordinal $\xi$ such that $\gamma_n+\xi=\delta_n$.

Now a genericity argument shows that $F$ is surjective. For fix $0<\xi<\lambda$, and let $p\in\mathbb{P}$. Let $D_n=A_n\cap\mathrm{dom}(p)$ and $C_n=A_n\backslash\mathrm{dom}(p)$. Note that for eventually all $n$, we have $\xi\leq\mathrm{ordertype}(C_n)$ (otherwise $\mathrm{dom}(p)$ has cardinality $\lambda$). Similarly, for eventually all $n$ we have $\mathrm{card}(D_n)\leq\mathrm{ordertype}(C_n)$. So fix $n$ such that $\eta=\max(\mathrm{card}(D_n),\xi)\leq\mathrm{ordertype}(C_n)$. Note that because both $\xi$ and $(p``D_n)\cap\lambda$ have cardinality $\leq\eta$ (in $V$), there is an ordinal $\alpha<\eta^+$ such that $[\alpha,\alpha+\xi)\cap((p``D_n)\cap\lambda)=\emptyset$. Now just extend $p$ to some $q$ with $A_n\subseteq\mathrm{dom}(q)$ and $\alpha\subseteq q``A_n$ and $[\alpha,\alpha+\xi)\cap (q``A_n)=\emptyset$ and $\alpha+\xi\in q``A_n$ (recall $C_n$ has ordertype $\geq\eta$, so this is possible). Note that $F(n)=\xi$, which suffices.

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    $\begingroup$ Thank you for your answer. Do you have any idea about the general case? $\endgroup$
    – Hanul Jeon
    Commented Dec 4, 2023 at 7:55
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First of all, note that if $\lambda$ is a singular limit cardinal, then the forcing is terribly behaved already in $\sf ZFC$. Even if $\lambda$ is a successor, you'd still find that the same argument works. Divide $\lambda$ into a small amount of intervals, since any small set, cardinality wise, must be bounded in almost all of them, we are guaranteed that generically the collapsing function is constant on a tail of cofinally many of the intervals, which gives us a surjection from $\operatorname{cf}(\lambda)$ onto $\kappa$, and therefore you've collapsed much more that you've bargained for.

In the more general case. Forcing with "plain ol' sequences of ordinals" is a bad idea when working in $\sf ZF$, and will rarely work. The reason is simple, if we are just concatenating sequences of ordinals without any restrictions, we are pretty much guaranteed to introduce some well-orderings into the universe. This is very easy to see in the case of $\kappa=\lambda$ which is just adding a Cohen subset to $\lambda$, in which case we force a bijection between $\mathcal P(\lambda)^V$ and $\lambda^+$, which will add well-orderings for $\mathcal P(\alpha)^V$ below $\lambda$ as well, and in that case bounded subsets could be added below $\lambda$.

More to the point, if $\kappa^{<\lambda}$ can be well-ordered, then as a well-ordered forcing things are more or less reasonably behaved. So, for example, if we assume $\sf AX_4$, which states that for any infinite ordinal $\kappa$, $[\kappa]^{\omega}$ is well-orderable. So, in this case $\operatorname{Col}(\omega_1,\kappa)$ is going to be a reasonably behaved forcing.

In the general case, it's not at all clear that there is a way in $\sf ZF$ to add generic sets of ordinals without "damage" (with the exception of Cohen reals, or more generally, $\operatorname{Col}(\omega,\alpha)$ which is likely to not cause more damage than intended). This is more of a situation that will need to be tailored to your current model. For example, if you're working in a symmetric extension, ground model forcings are well-orderable and will commute with the symmetric extension, so they can sometimes be useful and preserve nice things (but not always!). I have always seen that as one of the biggest problems in the theory of forcing without choice, and we have yet to even discuss non well-orderable sets.

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