17
$\begingroup$

I am looking for a reference to the fact that $\mathbb{Z}$ is conservatively embedded into the field $\mathbb{C}$ of complex numbers, that is anything in $\mathbb{Z}$ which is definable in $(\mathbb{C},\mathbb{Z},+,\times)$ is already definable in $(\mathbb{Z},+,\times)$.

$\endgroup$
8
  • 7
    $\begingroup$ @AsafKaragila This does not follow. E.g., consider the same argument with $\mathbb R$ in place of $\mathbb C$. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 10 at 12:12
  • 8
    $\begingroup$ @AsafKaragila I wrote $\mathbb R$ in place of $\mathbb C$, not $\mathbb R$ in place of $\mathbb Z$. Every automorphism of $\mathbb R$ fixes $\mathbb Z$, but it is certainly not true that all subsets of $\mathbb Z$ definable in $(\mathbb R,\mathbb Z,+,\cdot)$ are definable in $(\mathbb Z,+,\cdot)$, as $(\mathbb R,\mathbb Z,+,\cdot)$ is biinterpretable with the second-order arithmetic $(\mathcal P(\mathbb Z),\mathbb Z,+,\cdot,\in)$ (while keeping the $\mathbb Z$ part absolute). $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 10 at 13:14
  • 4
    $\begingroup$ Your first comment does not mention any such additional properties, but anyway, $(\mathbb C,\mathbb Z,+,\cdot)$ is neither categorical nor even slightly saturated, so I don't see how this would be relevant. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 10 at 13:58
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @Emil: $(\Bbb C,+,\times)$ is $2^{\aleph_0}$-categorical. And the only elements stable under all automorphisms are the rationals, which are definable from $\Bbb Z$ anyway. This is my point. Anyway, I had a chat with one of our model theorist who said that to an extent, my argument isn't far off. All that it's missing is to show some QE over the rationals. Which, again, homogeneity should be helpful to get. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 10 at 14:01
  • 5
    $\begingroup$ Oh, if you meant to treat the structure as two-sorted and eliminating quantifiers from the $\mathbb C$ sort while keeping quantifiers over $\mathbb Z$, then yes, that would of course solve the problem, but this is basically just restating (a generalization of) the question. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 10 at 14:35

1 Answer 1

15
$\begingroup$

I don't know a reference, but here's a (slightly overkill) proof:

It's known that $(\mathbb{Z};+,\times)$ interprets an algebraically closed field $K$ of infinite transcendence degree and characteristic zero, and it's not hard to show that additionally the inclusion $\mathbb{Z}\hookrightarrow K$ is also definable in $(\mathbb{Z};+,\times)$. This means that for every logic $\mathcal{L}$ which is at least as strong as first-order logic, every $\mathcal{L}$-definable set of integers in $(K;\mathbb{Z},+,\times)$ is already $\mathcal{L}$-definable in $(\mathbb{Z};+,\times)$. But $(K;\mathbb{Z},+,\times)\equiv_{\infty,\omega}(\mathbb{C};\mathbb{Z},+,\times)$ since e.g. they become isomorphic after forcing with $Col(\omega,2^{\omega})$. Consequently, letting $\mathit{Def}_\mathcal{L}(\mathfrak{M})$ be the set of relations on the structure $\mathfrak{M}$ which are definable in the logic $\mathcal{L}$ and letting $\mathit{Def}_\mathcal{L}^A(\mathfrak{M})$ be the subset of the above consisting of relations contained in a finite power of $A\subseteq\mathfrak{M}$, we have:

If $\mathcal{L}$ is a logic between $\mathsf{FOL}$ and $\mathcal{L}_{\infty,\omega}$, then $$\mathit{Def}_\mathcal{L}^\mathbb{Z}(\mathbb{C};\mathbb{Z},+,\times)=\mathit{Def}_\mathcal{L}(\mathbb{Z};+,\times).$$

In particular, taking $\mathcal{L}=\mathsf{FOL}$ answers the question.

This is a bit overkill though! (That said, it's interesting to note that in $\mathsf{ZF+AD}$ there is a subset of $\mathbb{Z}$ which is second-order-definable over $(\mathbb{C};\mathbb{Z},+,\times)$ but is not second-order-definable over $(\mathbb{Z};+,\times)$: using $\mathsf{AD}$ we get a second-order definition of $\mathbb{R}$ in $(\mathbb{C};+,\times)$, and from there we can define the set of integers coding the full second-order theory of $(\mathbb{Z};+,\times)$, at which point we invoke Tarski.)


Here's a possibly interesting follow-up question which tests the idea that this is in fact "tricky to prove" (which is now asked separately):

Replace $+$ and $\times$ with their relational versions $+_R$ and $\times_R$ (e.g. $+_R=\{(a,b,c)\in\mathbb{C}^3: a+b=c\}$). In the resulting language, consider the substructure with underlying set $X=\{2^n:n\in\mathbb{N}\}$ of $\mathbb{C}$. Every element of $X$ is definable in $\mathbb{C}$ so the way it sits inside $\mathbb{C}$ seems plausibly as tame as that for $\mathbb{Z}$. But the interpretation argument above doesn't work since $X$ is "informationally" just $(\mathbb{N};+)$.

Is there a definable relation on $(\mathbb{C};X,+_R,\times_R)$ which lives on $X$ (= is contained in some finite power of $X$) but is not definable in $(X;+_R,\times_R)$ (which is of course just $(X;\times_R)$)?

$\endgroup$
7
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ Wow, this is very nice! $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 11 at 1:02
  • $\begingroup$ @JoelDavidHamkins Thanks! The intuition is basically the same as in this old answer of mine. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 11 at 1:03
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @JoelDavidHamkins I've added a follow-up question you might find interesting. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 11 at 1:09
  • $\begingroup$ How do you define $\mathbb R$ in $\mathbb C$ in SOL assuming AD? $\endgroup$
    – Wojowu
    Commented Dec 12 at 18:35
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @Wojowu The set of numbers not moved by any automorphism. Under AD, the only automorphism is conjugation. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 12 at 20:19

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .