0
$\begingroup$

Let $G$ be a finite group with no abelian subfactor in its composition series.

Is $G$ obtained from simple groups by iterating semidirect products?

(Initially it was asked whether $G$ is a direct product of simple groups, but $A_5\wr A_5$ was mentioned as an immediate counterexample.)

$\endgroup$
9
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ No. For example $G=A_5\wr A_5$ (wreath product). $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 13, 2022 at 5:36
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ @JoachimKönig this is indeed the smallest counterexample, in the sense that every finite group with $\le 5$ Jordan-Hölder subquotients, all non-abelian, is a direct product of simple groups. $\endgroup$
    – YCor
    Commented Sep 13, 2022 at 6:00
  • $\begingroup$ I should mentioned that $G$ is not a product (direct, semi direct, wreath product etc.) of non abelian simple group $\endgroup$
    – User01
    Commented Sep 13, 2022 at 6:21
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ You need to make the question more precise. What exactly does "etc" mean? I predict that whatever definition of product you come up with, the answer to the question will be no. $\endgroup$
    – Derek Holt
    Commented Sep 13, 2022 at 16:04
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ It is trivially true that every (non-trivial) group has a (non-trivial) solvable subgroup - you don't need to use the non-trivial result of Suzuki to prove that! $\endgroup$
    – Derek Holt
    Commented Sep 13, 2022 at 16:44

2 Answers 2

9
$\begingroup$

There are groups that look like wreath products, but where the base group has no complement, so they are not semidirect products. The theory is described in an old paper of mine (and probably elsewhere):

D. F. Holt, Embeddings of group extensions into Wreath products, Quar. J. Math. (Oxford) 29 (1978), 463--468.

It can be seen as a non-abelian analogue of Shapiro's lemma in cohomology.

Roughly speaking, let $D$ be a group extension of $N$ by $H$ (meaning $N$ is the normal subgroup), suppose that the group $G$ contains $H$ as a subgroup, and let $\Omega$ be the set of (right or left) cosets of $H$ in $G$ with the transitive (right or left) action of $G$ on $\Omega$.

Then there is corresponding wreath product like extension $E$ of $N^\Omega$ by $G$, where the factors of $N^\Omega$ are permuted under conjugation corresponding to the action of $G$ on $\Omega$, and the normalizer in $E$ of a factor of the base group modulo the other factors of the base group is naturally isomorphic to $D$.

Furthermore, the extension $E$ is non-split if and only if $D$ is.

So, for example, we could take $D = {\rm Aut}(A_6)$ (as in spin's answer) with $N = {\rm Inn}(A_6) \cong A_6$, and $H = C_2^2$, and $G = A_5$, so $|\Omega| = 15$. This results in a non-split extension of $A_6^{15}$ by $A_5$, which cannot be constructed from simple groups by taking iterated semidirect products.

$\endgroup$
5
  • $\begingroup$ In my comment my vague intuition came from extensions of modules, where you know that if $V$ is a $K[G]$-module for a group $G$ and $\operatorname{Ext}^1(W,Z) = 0$ for all composition factors $W,Z$ of $V$, then $V$ is completely reducible. But as this answer shows that kind of stuff doesn't work for extensions of groups. $\endgroup$
    – spin
    Commented Sep 14, 2022 at 8:38
  • $\begingroup$ Hi, I did not understand the construction of E. Is this the notion of twisted wreath product described here: sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0021869367900294is section 2? Thanks a lot $\endgroup$
    – Rami
    Commented Aug 4 at 14:08
  • $\begingroup$ @Rami I didn't explain the construction of $E$, I just referred to the old paper of mine. No, the twisted wreath product in the paper you refer to is split. You will notice that the construction of the example in my post does not satisfy the assumption $(*)$ in the paper, and results in a non-split version of the twisted wreath product. $\endgroup$
    – Derek Holt
    Commented Aug 4 at 17:04
  • $\begingroup$ @Derek Holt. Thank you very much. Can you say where in the paper it is constructed? $\endgroup$
    – Rami
    Commented Aug 5 at 8:42
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @Rami It's the proof of Theorem 1 $\endgroup$
    – Derek Holt
    Commented Aug 5 at 8:48
3
$\begingroup$

The group $\operatorname{Aut}(A_6)$ has a unique simple normal subgroup, $\operatorname{Inn}(A_6) = A_6$. It is a nonsplit extension $$1 \rightarrow A_6 \rightarrow \operatorname{Aut}(A_6) \rightarrow C_2 \times C_2 \rightarrow 1.$$

$\endgroup$

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .