6
$\begingroup$

Every Lie group $G$ has the following escape property: For every $x \ne e$ in a sufficiently small neighborhood $U$ of the identity $e$ in $G$, there is a integer $n$ such that $x^n$ is not in $U$.

The $\textbf{Question one }:$ is if we can find a sufficiently small neighborhood $V$ of $e$ in $G$, for any two different points $a,b \in V$ , there is a integer $m$ such that $a^m(b^{-1})^m$ is not in $V$.


Thanks for Scholar's answer about the above question

If $G$ is a commutative group the question actually has a positive answer, since $G$ has the escape property. I guess it is true for some larger class of Lie groups. The problem is to state that the power mapping can enlarge the distance between two different points. But I didn't find a good property of power mapping by looking up data.

meanwhile,Thanks Michael Albanese for editing of the question.

$\endgroup$
13
  • 4
    $\begingroup$ The exponential mapping always maps provides a diffeomorphism from a sufficiently small ball around the origin in the tangent space (the Lie algebra $\mathfrak{g}$) to a neighborhood of $e$ in $G$. This gives the logarithmic coordinates for $G$ around the identity, which it seems like should be enough to prove this. $\endgroup$
    – Buzz
    Commented Aug 19, 2021 at 20:23
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks your suggestion. $\endgroup$
    – free
    Commented Aug 19, 2021 at 20:31
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @Buzz: Your suggestion may not work because $a^m$ may be too close to $b^m$. $\endgroup$
    – markvs
    Commented Aug 19, 2021 at 21:33
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ If we place ourselves in the neighborhood $U$ Buzz refers to and set $a = e^{\alpha}, b = e^{\beta}$, we can express $a^m (b^{-1})^m = e^{m \alpha} e^{-m \beta} = e^{F(m\alpha, -m \beta)}$, where the big $F$ is given by the Baker-Campbell-Hausdorff formula. Let $U$ correspond to the ball of the tangent space of radius $r$. I think we now have to show that as $m$ goes to $\infty$, the norm of $F(m \alpha, m \beta)$ goes to $\infty$ for all $\alpha, \beta$ of norm $\le r$.. In this way $a^m (b^{-1})^m$ can't be in $U$, otherwise its logarithm would have radius $\le r$. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 19, 2021 at 22:44
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @AndreaMarino: So what's the proof? As far as I see, the claim is not proved and may even be wrong. $\endgroup$
    – markvs
    Commented Aug 20, 2021 at 0:12

2 Answers 2

4
$\begingroup$

Let me rewrite a comment I made that has a typo, since it's too late to edit it. The property fails for any compact connected noncommutative Lie group. Note that if $G$ is a compact group then it has an equivariant metric, and therefore a "distance to $e$ function" $|x|: = d(x,e)$ such that the function $$d(x,y): = |xy^{-1}|$$ is a metric, and such that the topology defined by this metric is the standard topology on your group $G$. Thus any open set $U$ containing the origin must also contain some $\epsilon-$ball $B_\epsilon: = \{x\in G\mid |x|<\epsilon\}.$ Now let $a\in G$ be any element, $g\in G$ be any "small" element with $|g|<\epsilon/2$ which doesn't commute with $a$ and let $b: = gag^{-1}.$ Then $d(a,ga)<\epsilon/2, d(ga, gag^{-1})<\epsilon/2,$ so by the triangle inequality $d(a,b) = d(a,gag^{-1}) < \epsilon.$ But the same argument also shows that $d(a^n, b^n) = d(a^n, ga^ng^{-1}) <\epsilon,$ so $|a^nb^{-n}|<\epsilon$ and $|a^nb^{-n}|\in U$. Thus your conjectured property fails so long as your group is compact and contains noncommuting matrices arbitrarily close to $1$, something that is automatically true if your group is a compact connected noncommutative group. More generally, if your group contains a compact connected noncommutative group then this property fails as well (by simply taking $x,y$ elements of the compact subgroup as above).

$\endgroup$
3
  • $\begingroup$ your answer is true . your may also is true for SIN-group. Particular, Thanks you $\endgroup$
    – free
    Commented Aug 20, 2021 at 6:39
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ As an explicit example, I like $SO(3)$ with $a,b$ two rotations by the same angle around two different axes which are very close to each other. For any $m$, $a^m$ and $b^m$ will still be two rotations by the same angle around those axes, thus close to each other. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 20, 2021 at 10:08
  • $\begingroup$ @AchimKrause That's a great intuitive example. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 20, 2021 at 20:39
3
$\begingroup$

This is false in the affine group of matrices $\begin{pmatrix} \theta & \eta\\0 & 1\end{pmatrix}$, $\theta,\eta\in\mathbf{R}$, $\theta>0$.

Indeed $V$ being fixed, choose $a=\begin{pmatrix} \theta & \eta\\0 & 1\end{pmatrix}$, $b=\begin{pmatrix} \theta & 0\\0 & 1\end{pmatrix}$, so $$a^mb^{-m}=\begin{pmatrix} 1 & (\theta^{m-1}+\theta^{m-2}+\dots +\theta+1)\eta\\0 & 1\end{pmatrix}.$$

Indeed choose $\theta<1$, close enough to $1$, and then $\eta$ small enough, so that $a,b\in V$ and so that $S=\begin{pmatrix} 1 & [0,\eta/(1-\theta)]\\0 & 1\end{pmatrix}$ is contained in $V$. Then $a^mb^{-m}\in S$, hence remains in $V$.


On the other hand the property is true when $G$ is connected nilpotent. Indeed if $G$ is simply connected nilpotent, $a^mb^{-m}$ tends to infinity for all $a\neq b$, by a simple application of the BCH formula (details upon request). In the case of $G$ connected nilpotent Lie group, the same property follows if $ab^{-1}$ is not central, and if $ab^{-1}$ is central, one argues as in the abelian case.

$\endgroup$
1
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks you suggestion and i see it $\endgroup$
    – free
    Commented Aug 20, 2021 at 8:04

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .