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Martin Sleziak
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Elementary equivalence is set-theoretically absolute between any two transitive models of set theory; this is also true for the infinitary logics - e.g., $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1\omega}$ - at least, assuming the models in question have all the relevant infinitary formulas. In both cases, the easiest way to prove this is to prove that the satisfaction of a given sentence in a given structure is absolute (note http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.0670https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.0670 by Joel David Hamkins and Ruizhi Yang, which justifies my restriction to transitive models).

This latter statement is of course false for second-order logic: the statements "the Continuum Hypothesis holds" and "this model is countable" are both expressible by second-order sentences, and their truth values depend on the ambient universe, with the former being being a "switch" and the latter a "button" in the sense of the modal logic of forcing.

However, this alone does not show that second-order elementary equivalence, "$\equiv_{II}$", is not absolute. The simplest way I know to show that $\equiv_{II}$ is not absolute is to consider a pair of models $A, B$ whose cardinalities have different set-theoretic properties; for example, take $A$ and $B$ to be pure sets with cardinalities $\aleph_0$ and $\aleph_1$, respectively. Then the former satisfies "I am countable" while the latter does not, and this is expressible by a second-order sentence, so they are not second-order elementarily equivalent; however, by collapsing $\omega_1$ we make $A$ and $B$ isomorphic.

This leaves open, however, two classes questions about the non-absoluteness of second-order elementary equivalence. I'll mention a couple in each class.


First, how much of this depends on cardinality?

Are there equinumerous $A$, $B$ such that the second-order elementary equivalence of $A$ and $B$ is not absolute between transitive models of set theory containing $A$ and $B$?

And the stronger version:

Are there countable such $A$ and $B$?


Second, what kind of "switching behavior" is possible? The example given above shows that we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ on," but in that example we cannot turn it off again. An example where we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ off" is the following: take pure sets $A$ and $B$ of cardinalities $\vert A\vert<\vert B\vert$ which are second-order elementarily equivalent; by the pigeonhole principle, we can in fact find such $A$ and $B$ of cardinality $\le 2^{\aleph_0}{}^+.$ Now consider a forcing extension $V[G]$ in which $\vert A\vert$ is made countable but $\vert B\vert$ is not; in $V[G]$, $A\not\equiv_{II}B$. This raises a couple interesting questions.

First, note that in the above example, we can turn $\equiv_{II}$ back on again by collapsing $\vert B\vert$ to $\omega$. So it makes sense to ask:

Suppose $A\equiv_{II} B$ in $V$. Is it the case that for every generic extension $V[G]$, there is a further generic extension $V[G][H]$ in which $A\equiv_{II} B$?

Second, the only examples I've found so far involve collapsing cardinals. This, of course, runs out when everything reaches $\omega$. So we can ask:

Is there a pair of structures $A, B\in V$ and an $\omega$-sequence of models $V=V_0<V_1<V_2< . . . $ (where "$W<W'$" means "$W'$ is a generic extension of $W$") such that $V_i\models A\equiv_{II}B$ exactly when $i$ is even? In general, what sort of 'alternating behavior' is possible?


This is of course a long list of questions, and I don't expect them all to be answered here. Basically, I'm interested in everything around this issue, so I'll accept any answer which helps me understand the general picture of things.

Elementary equivalence is set-theoretically absolute between any two transitive models of set theory; this is also true for the infinitary logics - e.g., $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1\omega}$ - at least, assuming the models in question have all the relevant infinitary formulas. In both cases, the easiest way to prove this is to prove that the satisfaction of a given sentence in a given structure is absolute (note http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.0670 by Joel David Hamkins and Ruizhi Yang, which justifies my restriction to transitive models).

This latter statement is of course false for second-order logic: the statements "the Continuum Hypothesis holds" and "this model is countable" are both expressible by second-order sentences, and their truth values depend on the ambient universe, with the former being being a "switch" and the latter a "button" in the sense of the modal logic of forcing.

However, this alone does not show that second-order elementary equivalence, "$\equiv_{II}$", is not absolute. The simplest way I know to show that $\equiv_{II}$ is not absolute is to consider a pair of models $A, B$ whose cardinalities have different set-theoretic properties; for example, take $A$ and $B$ to be pure sets with cardinalities $\aleph_0$ and $\aleph_1$, respectively. Then the former satisfies "I am countable" while the latter does not, and this is expressible by a second-order sentence, so they are not second-order elementarily equivalent; however, by collapsing $\omega_1$ we make $A$ and $B$ isomorphic.

This leaves open, however, two classes questions about the non-absoluteness of second-order elementary equivalence. I'll mention a couple in each class.


First, how much of this depends on cardinality?

Are there equinumerous $A$, $B$ such that the second-order elementary equivalence of $A$ and $B$ is not absolute between transitive models of set theory containing $A$ and $B$?

And the stronger version:

Are there countable such $A$ and $B$?


Second, what kind of "switching behavior" is possible? The example given above shows that we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ on," but in that example we cannot turn it off again. An example where we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ off" is the following: take pure sets $A$ and $B$ of cardinalities $\vert A\vert<\vert B\vert$ which are second-order elementarily equivalent; by the pigeonhole principle, we can in fact find such $A$ and $B$ of cardinality $\le 2^{\aleph_0}{}^+.$ Now consider a forcing extension $V[G]$ in which $\vert A\vert$ is made countable but $\vert B\vert$ is not; in $V[G]$, $A\not\equiv_{II}B$. This raises a couple interesting questions.

First, note that in the above example, we can turn $\equiv_{II}$ back on again by collapsing $\vert B\vert$ to $\omega$. So it makes sense to ask:

Suppose $A\equiv_{II} B$ in $V$. Is it the case that for every generic extension $V[G]$, there is a further generic extension $V[G][H]$ in which $A\equiv_{II} B$?

Second, the only examples I've found so far involve collapsing cardinals. This, of course, runs out when everything reaches $\omega$. So we can ask:

Is there a pair of structures $A, B\in V$ and an $\omega$-sequence of models $V=V_0<V_1<V_2< . . . $ (where "$W<W'$" means "$W'$ is a generic extension of $W$") such that $V_i\models A\equiv_{II}B$ exactly when $i$ is even? In general, what sort of 'alternating behavior' is possible?


This is of course a long list of questions, and I don't expect them all to be answered here. Basically, I'm interested in everything around this issue, so I'll accept any answer which helps me understand the general picture of things.

Elementary equivalence is set-theoretically absolute between any two transitive models of set theory; this is also true for the infinitary logics - e.g., $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1\omega}$ - at least, assuming the models in question have all the relevant infinitary formulas. In both cases, the easiest way to prove this is to prove that the satisfaction of a given sentence in a given structure is absolute (note https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.0670 by Joel David Hamkins and Ruizhi Yang, which justifies my restriction to transitive models).

This latter statement is of course false for second-order logic: the statements "the Continuum Hypothesis holds" and "this model is countable" are both expressible by second-order sentences, and their truth values depend on the ambient universe, with the former being being a "switch" and the latter a "button" in the sense of the modal logic of forcing.

However, this alone does not show that second-order elementary equivalence, "$\equiv_{II}$", is not absolute. The simplest way I know to show that $\equiv_{II}$ is not absolute is to consider a pair of models $A, B$ whose cardinalities have different set-theoretic properties; for example, take $A$ and $B$ to be pure sets with cardinalities $\aleph_0$ and $\aleph_1$, respectively. Then the former satisfies "I am countable" while the latter does not, and this is expressible by a second-order sentence, so they are not second-order elementarily equivalent; however, by collapsing $\omega_1$ we make $A$ and $B$ isomorphic.

This leaves open, however, two classes questions about the non-absoluteness of second-order elementary equivalence. I'll mention a couple in each class.


First, how much of this depends on cardinality?

Are there equinumerous $A$, $B$ such that the second-order elementary equivalence of $A$ and $B$ is not absolute between transitive models of set theory containing $A$ and $B$?

And the stronger version:

Are there countable such $A$ and $B$?


Second, what kind of "switching behavior" is possible? The example given above shows that we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ on," but in that example we cannot turn it off again. An example where we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ off" is the following: take pure sets $A$ and $B$ of cardinalities $\vert A\vert<\vert B\vert$ which are second-order elementarily equivalent; by the pigeonhole principle, we can in fact find such $A$ and $B$ of cardinality $\le 2^{\aleph_0}{}^+.$ Now consider a forcing extension $V[G]$ in which $\vert A\vert$ is made countable but $\vert B\vert$ is not; in $V[G]$, $A\not\equiv_{II}B$. This raises a couple interesting questions.

First, note that in the above example, we can turn $\equiv_{II}$ back on again by collapsing $\vert B\vert$ to $\omega$. So it makes sense to ask:

Suppose $A\equiv_{II} B$ in $V$. Is it the case that for every generic extension $V[G]$, there is a further generic extension $V[G][H]$ in which $A\equiv_{II} B$?

Second, the only examples I've found so far involve collapsing cardinals. This, of course, runs out when everything reaches $\omega$. So we can ask:

Is there a pair of structures $A, B\in V$ and an $\omega$-sequence of models $V=V_0<V_1<V_2< . . . $ (where "$W<W'$" means "$W'$ is a generic extension of $W$") such that $V_i\models A\equiv_{II}B$ exactly when $i$ is even? In general, what sort of 'alternating behavior' is possible?


This is of course a long list of questions, and I don't expect them all to be answered here. Basically, I'm interested in everything around this issue, so I'll accept any answer which helps me understand the general picture of things.

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Noah Schweber
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Noah Schweber
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The (non-)absoluteness of second-order elementary equivalence

Elementary equivalence is set-theoretically absolute between any two transitive models of set theory; this is also true for the infinitary logics - e.g., $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1\omega}$ - at least, assuming the models in question have all the relevant infinitary formulas. In both cases, the easiest way to prove this is to prove that the satisfaction of a given sentence in a given structure is absolute (note http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.0670 by Joel David Hamkins and Ruizhi Yang, which justifies my restriction to transitive models).

This latter statement is of course false for second-order logic: the statements "the Continuum Hypothesis holds" and "this model is countable" are both expressible by second-order sentences, and their truth values depend on the ambient universe, with the former being being a "switch" and the latter a "button" in the sense of the modal logic of forcing.

However, this alone does not show that second-order elementary equivalence, "$\equiv_{II}$", is not absolute. The simplest way I know to show that $\equiv_{II}$ is not absolute is to consider a pair of models $A, B$ whose cardinalities have different set-theoretic properties; for example, take $A$ and $B$ to be pure sets with cardinalities $\aleph_0$ and $\aleph_1$, respectively. Then the former satisfies "I am countable" while the latter does not, and this is expressible by a second-order sentence, so they are not second-order elementarily equivalent; however, by collapsing $\omega_1$ we make $A$ and $B$ isomorphic.

This leaves open, however, two classes questions about the non-absoluteness of second-order elementary equivalence. I'll mention a couple in each class.


First, how much of this depends on cardinality?

Are there equinumerous $A$, $B$ such that the second-order elementary equivalence of $A$ and $B$ is not absolute between transitive models of set theory containing $A$ and $B$?

And the stronger version:

Are there countable such $A$ and $B$?


Second, what kind of "switching behavior" is possible? The example given above shows that we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ on," but in that example we cannot turn it off again. An example where we can "turn $\equiv_{II}$ off" is the following: take pure sets $A$ and $B$ of cardinalities $\vert A\vert<\vert B\vert$ which are second-order elementarily equivalent; by the pigeonhole principle, we can in fact find such $A$ and $B$ of cardinality $\le 2^{\aleph_0}{}^+.$ Now consider a forcing extension $V[G]$ in which $\vert A\vert$ is made countable but $\vert B\vert$ is not; in $V[G]$, $A\not\equiv_{II}B$. This raises a couple interesting questions.

First, note that in the above example, we can turn $\equiv_{II}$ back on again by collapsing $\vert B\vert$ to $\omega$. So it makes sense to ask:

Suppose $A\equiv_{II} B$ in $V$. Is it the case that for every generic extension $V[G]$, there is a further generic extension $V[G][H]$ in which $A\equiv_{II} B$?

Second, the only examples I've found so far involve collapsing cardinals. This, of course, runs out when everything reaches $\omega$. So we can ask:

Is there a pair of structures $A, B\in V$ and an $\omega$-sequence of models $V=V_0<V_1<V_2< . . . $ (where "$W<W'$" means "$W'$ is a generic extension of $W$") such that $V_i\models A\equiv_{II}B$ exactly when $i$ is even? In general, what sort of 'alternating behavior' is possible?


This is of course a long list of questions, and I don't expect them all to be answered here. Basically, I'm interested in everything around this issue, so I'll accept any answer which helps me understand the general picture of things.