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Suppose $G$ is Conradian right-ordered group. If $x < z$ and $y < z$, can we say $xy < z^2$?

In right-ordered groups, there is a result in Conrad - Right-ordered groups that states: If a group is a Conradian group and we have $x < a^m$ and $y < a^n$ for some positive integers $m$ and $n$, then there exists a positive integer $q$ such that $xy < a^q$.

I have tried to prove the stronger statement in the title of the question (i.e., I tried to show that $x<z$ and $y<z$ yield $xy<z^2$) in Conradian groups, but I'm not finding a proper argument. I have also tried a lot to find counterexamples, but have not been successful. Can someone either prove or disprove this?

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  • $\begingroup$ The link doesn't work. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 13 at 6:27
  • $\begingroup$ projecteuclid.org/journals/michigan-mathematical-journal/… $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 13 at 6:54
  • $\begingroup$ or you can type right-ordered groups written by Paul Conrad. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 13 at 6:55
  • $\begingroup$ I'm not sure if you are trying to prove the statement in the title or the weaker statement in the body. But the statement in the body seems to follow immediately from item (2) of the definition of a Conradian ordering mentioned here: arxiv.org/pdf/0907.4340 (mutatis mutandis, because that paper deals with left orderings). $\endgroup$
    – HJRW
    Commented Sep 13 at 10:09
  • $\begingroup$ Here the item(2) is saying 1<g<f then $g^{-1}f^ng>f$ and this is true for some n. Suppose $1<x < y < z$. We claim that $xy < z^2$. Since $xy < zy$, if $z ≤ z^2y^{-1}$ then we are done. Suppose that $z> z^2y^{-1}$. Since $y < z$, which gives $yzy^{−1}<z^2y^{-1}<z$. Therefore $yzy^{-1}<z$. How does this statement contradict item 2? Item 2 is true for some n, not for all n. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 13 at 10:51

1 Answer 1

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(Since I usually use left-orderings, the following answer uses left-orderings)

No, when $<$ is a left-ordering which is not a bi-ordering then you can always find elements $x,y,z$ with $x <z $ and $y<z$ such that $xy>z^2$. To see this, since $<$ is not a bi-ordering we can always find an element $a,b$ such that $1<a$ but $b^{-1}ab <1$ (so $ab < b < a^{-1}b$). Now $a^{-2} < 1$, $ab < b$ but $(a^{-2})(ab) = a^{-1}b > b$.

On the other hand, it should be mentioned that somewhat related property holds for Conradian orderings; if < is a Conradian left-ordering, then $b < ab^{2}$ holds for every $1<a,1<b$. This is stated and proved in Proposition 3.7 of On the dynamics of (left) orderable groups

[Added] More concrete answer

To avoid confusion, from now on, let us use right ordering (as opposed to the original answer)

Let $(G,<)$ be a right-ordered group. Assume that $<$ is not a bi-ordering, so there exist $s,t \in G$ such that $1<s$ but $t>ts$. Then

$\cdots<ts<t<ts^{-1}<ts^{-2}<\cdots$.

So by multiplying $t$ from the right we get

$\cdots<tst<t^2<ts^{-1}t<ts^{-2}t<\cdots$.

Now put $x=ts$, $y=s^{-2}t$, $z=t$. Then

$x = ts < t=z$

$y=s^{-2}t<t=z$ (because $s^{-2}<1<s$ and $<$ is a right-ordering), and

$xy=(ts)(s^{-2}t)=ts^{-1}t>t^{2}=z^2$.

This gives a negative answer to the original question; $x<z,y<z$ but $xy>z^{2}$ (note that Conradian property is not needed).

To get a negative answer to the refined question (elements $x,y,z$ with $1<x<y<z$ with $xy>z^{2}$), note that in the above construction, we can take $1<t$ so that $1<x=ts$ holds. Since $x<y \iff ts<s^{-2}t \iff tst^{-1} < s^{-2}$, by taking $G$ so that $1<s,t$ and $tst^{-1}<s^{-2}<1$ holds, we get $1<x<y<z$ with $xy>z^{2}$.

(For example, let $G=\langle s,t \: | \: s \in \mathbb{Q}, t \in \mathbb{Z}, tst^{-1}=s^{-3} \rangle$ with natural extension right order.)

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  • $\begingroup$ Above you have shown that $ab<a^{-1}b=a^{-2}ab$ which implies $ab>a^2ab>a^2.$ Therefore we have $a^2<ab,$ but this we can show by left ordering also if $a<b$ this implies $a^2<ab,$ by multiplying $a$ left side, my question was if $1<a<b<c,$ then $ab<c^2$? $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 18 at 8:57
  • $\begingroup$ It would be easier to follow this answer if you said explicitly what $x$, $y$ and $z$ are in terms of $a$ and $b$. $\endgroup$
    – HJRW
    Commented Sep 18 at 14:47
  • $\begingroup$ I tried with this example to get contradiction . Let $G=\mathbb{Z}\rtimes\mathbb{Z}$ , where we define $(m,n)(m',n') = (m+(-1)^nm',n+n').$ In this group, $ (m,n) = (m,0)(0,n) = (1,0)^m(0,1)^n$, so $\mathbb{Z}\rtimes\mathbb{Z}$ is generated by $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ where $(0, 1)(1,0)(0,1)^{-1} = (-1,0) = (1,0)^{-1}.$ This is a right ordered group here we define $(m_1,n_1)\leq (m_2,n_2)$ if $n_1<n_2$ or $n_1=n_2$ and $m_1\leq m_2.$ Consider $(1,1)<(2,1)<(3,1)$ here we have $a^2=b^2=c^2$ but this implies $ab<b^2=c^2.$ $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 18 at 17:37
  • $\begingroup$ We can also assume that $1<b$. Take $G \times \langle c \rangle$ with lexicographical order (this is Conradian if the order on $G$ is Conradian), so that $c$ is the minimum positive element. Then $a^{-2}< c^{-1} < 1$ and $ab < c^{-1} <1 < b$, but $a^{-2}(ab)=a^{-1}b> b > 1 > c^{-2}$ $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 19 at 9:43
  • $\begingroup$ Thank you for your response. I mostly use the right ordering, so there might be some confusion on my part but I think If we use left ordering, we need to show that $yx<z^2.$ In your explanation, you have taken $c$ to be the minimum element, i.e., $e<c<a<b$. We need to show that $yx=ac<b^2.$ How $ab>a^2$ imply $ac>b^2,$ and there is one more property in right ordering if $e<a<b$ then $aba^{-1}\geq e$ $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 19 at 10:27

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