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Consider surreal numbers as an H-field with operation of derivation.

In such setting for any surreal number $\alpha$ such that $0<\alpha<e^\omega$, $\partial(\alpha)<\alpha$ and for $\alpha>e^\omega$, $\partial (\alpha)>\alpha$.

Particularly, $\partial(\omega_1)$ is hugely greater than $\omega_1$.

I wonder, can we then define ordinals as $\omega_{n+1}=\partial(\omega_n)$, $n>0$?

Is this allowed by the automorphisms of the surreals?

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  • $\begingroup$ For clarification's sake, the definition of derivation you're using is the one from arxiv.org/abs/1503.00315 ? $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 29 at 19:50
  • $\begingroup$ @StevenStadnicki from where it follows? $\endgroup$
    – Anixx
    Commented Aug 29 at 20:48
  • $\begingroup$ @StevenStadnicki $ε_0$ is the supremum of germs of all tetrations (power towers). As such, it is smaller than its derivation. $\endgroup$
    – Anixx
    Commented Aug 30 at 0:10

1 Answer 1

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It is not the case that $0<\alpha < \operatorname{e}^{\omega} \Longrightarrow \partial(\alpha)< \alpha$. For instance $\partial(\operatorname{e}^{\omega}-\omega^{-1})= \operatorname{e}^{\omega}+\omega^{-2}>\operatorname{e}^{\omega}-\omega^{-1}$.

However, it is the case that $0<\alpha < \mathbb{R}^{>0} \operatorname{e}^{\omega} \Longrightarrow \partial(\alpha)< \alpha$, and that $\mathbb{R}^{>0} \operatorname{e}^{\omega}<\alpha \Longrightarrow \partial(\alpha)> \alpha$. This holds indeed in any H-field (see Lemma 1.4 in the paper H-fields and their Liouville extensions by Matthias Aschenbrenner and Lou van den Dries).

It is also the case in all H-fields with small derivation that if $\alpha$ lies above the field of constants, then $\partial(\alpha) < \alpha^2$. So you can't go too far by derivating.

If by $\omega_1$ you mean the smallest uncountable ordinal, then it is a $\log$-atomic number, whence its derivative can be computed by the special formula for $\log$-atomic numbers. In that case, we have $\partial(\omega_1)=\exp(\log \omega_1 + \log \log \omega_1 +\log \log \log \omega_1 + \cdots)$, which is sometimes written as an infinite product $\omega_1 (\log \omega_1) (\log \log \omega_1) \cdots$. The same formula holds for all $\log$-atomic numbers $\lambda$ larger than all $\exp(\omega),\exp(\exp(\omega)),...$.

So $\partial(\omega_1)$ is indeed much larger than $\omega_1$ (and is not an ordinal), but infathomably smaller than $\omega_2$ in that every iterate of exp applied at $\partial(\omega_1)$ is still (much) smaller than $\omega_2$.

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  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for the clear answer. Interestingly, we can define $\omega_1$ (assuming it to be the numerosity of $[0.1)$) via $\omega$ as $\omega_1=\frac1\pi\int_0^1\omega dx=\frac1\pi\int_0^\infty \ln \omega dx$ (using this definition of integration: math.stackexchange.com/a/4951684/2513). I hoped we could do something the same to define $\omega_2$, but your answer says, no. $\endgroup$
    – Anixx
    Commented Aug 30 at 12:07
  • $\begingroup$ This is an excellent answer; thank you. @Anixx Even assuming CH it makes little sense to me that you can get the ordinal $\omega_1$ from the cardinal $\aleph_1$, particularly since integration should use no potential well-ordering properties of the reals. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 30 at 16:31
  • $\begingroup$ @StevenStadnicki $\aleph_1$ and $\omega_1$ are the same number. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number#Aleph-one $\endgroup$
    – Anixx
    Commented Aug 30 at 16:38
  • $\begingroup$ @anixx Yes and no. $\aleph_1$ is a cardinality; it is the cardinality of $\omega_1$ (the set of all countable ordinals). $\omega_1$ is an ordinal; it implies a well-ordering of the elements less than itself. But as a for-instance, assuming the Axiom of Choice the cardinality of the reals is at least $\aleph_1$ but we cannot extract an increasing sequence of order type $\omega_1$ from it. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 31 at 3:15

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