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I'm a real newb to category theory and I don't know if it's the right place to ask this trivial question but:

I've learned about limits and colimits (as being special objects in the category of cones/cocones), and I wonder whether there existed some kind of generalization/mix between cones and cocones.

In other words, let's say I have a diagram $J$ with some additional + or - attribute on each node (maybe this can be formalized with a functor $J \rightarrow 2$ where 2 is the discrete two-element category). I'd like to define a generalized cone as a cone where the arrows between the apex $c$ and objects of the base of the diagram can be in both directions(for + objects in $J$, the arrows would go from $c$ to $F(c)$ where $F: J \rightarrow C$, and for - objects in $J$, from $F(c)$ to $c$), plus the resulting commutation diagrams. I tried to define it as a natural transformation (between the functor that sends diagrams objects to $c$ if +, or $F(c)$ otherwise and the functor that does the inverse), but it did not seem to work well with morphisms in $J$ (which did not map to morphisms in the base of the cone).

So my question is: does the category of such generalized cones have a name, and have interesting properties (initial and terminal objects)? I could not find a clear answer on this on the Internet, that did not involve other constructions I'm not familiar with (cocomma categories, for instance).

(I've seen What are generalized cocones/colimits really called? but it seems to me that it is still always going from the base to the apex in that case)

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    $\begingroup$ A major difficulty is that the construction is not in any obvious way functorial in vertices. $\endgroup$
    – Rafi
    Commented Mar 30, 2023 at 20:47
  • $\begingroup$ Are you sure you want discrete $2$? Because then you would not have any arrows between objects with opposite signs in either direction. $\endgroup$ Commented Apr 4, 2023 at 4:11
  • $\begingroup$ On the other hand, there are cases which certainly look like what you want but do not fit even in a more general setup. I mean bilimits, which need pairs (cone, cocone) with the same vertex. For example, direct sums in an additive category. $\endgroup$ Commented Apr 4, 2023 at 4:30
  • $\begingroup$ Yes you're right, that's more what I had in mind originally: possibly having functions between vertices with different +/- labels in my diagram, and the resulting commutation diagrams, although the discrete case was already something that could interest me. So I should have said the category $2$ with $0\rightleftarrows1$ instead, sorry for the confusion $\endgroup$
    – peshel
    Commented Apr 5, 2023 at 2:57

1 Answer 1

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Let $F:\mathcal{C}\to\mathcal{D}$ be a functor, with $\pm:\mathcal{C}\to 2$ a functor assigning $+'s$ and $-'s$ as appropriate. Suppose we have an object $D\in{\bf Ob}_\mathcal{D}$ together with arrows $$\{\pi_C:D\to F(C)\}_{C\in\pm^{-1}(0)}$$ $$\{\pi'_C:F(C')\to D\}_{C\in\pm^{-1}(1)}$$ which commute with arrows in the image of $F$ as appropriate. Let $\mathcal{C}^+$ and $\mathcal{C}^-$ be the full subcategories of $\mathcal{C}$ on $\pm^{-1}(0)$ and $\pm^{-1}(1)$, respectively, and let$$F^+:\mathcal{C}^+\to\mathcal{D}$$ $$F^-:\mathcal{C}^-\to\mathcal{D}$$ be the functors obtained by restricting $F$ as appropriate. Then $\pi$ is a cone to $F^+$ and $\pi'$ is a cocone from $F^-$, so the category you want to consider here is really just $${\sf Cone}(F^+)+{\sf Cocone}(F^-),$$ the coproduct of the cone and cocone categories to the appropriate subfunctors of $F$.

This explains the lack of good 'limit defining' properties for this construction on the overall functor -- we never have terminal or initial objects in this category since it's disconnected unless ${\sf Cone}(F^+)$ or ${\sf Cocone}(F^-)$ is trivial, i.e. unless we label everything with a $+$ or a $-$, in which case it obviously collapses back to a cone or cocone. This construction is consequently unlikely to pop up anywhere in the published literature, and likely remains unnamed.

Alternatively, you could be considering ${\sf Cone}(F^+)\times{\sf Cocone}(F^-)$ which can have limits and colimits without one factor being trivial, but a terminal/initial object would be a terminal/initial pair consisting of a cone and a cocone, respectively, and initial cones/terminal cocones aren't generally what's encountered in practice (I'm not sure why, though).

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    $\begingroup$ If $2$ is discrete, then yes, your indexing category consists of two noniteracting pieces. But in principle one might consider either $0\to1$ or $0\leftrightarrows1$ for $2$... $\endgroup$ Commented Apr 4, 2023 at 4:08
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    $\begingroup$ @მამუკაჯიბლაძე Yes, this occurred to me when writing the post -- I think the former option corresponds to the join ${\sf Cone}(F^+)\star{\sf Cocone}(F^-)$, with the obvious dual corresponding to the join with factors reversed. I'm not sure about the other options off the top of my head. (I mainly wrote this because there was no activity after 4 days on an answerable question with upvotes, to start a discussion; muchas gracias for obliging) $\endgroup$
    – Alec Rhea
    Commented Apr 4, 2023 at 5:08
  • $\begingroup$ I also commented this on the question itself: there are cases certainly pertaining to it which do not seem to fit into the framework, like direct sum diagrams (in additive categories) and other bilimits. $\endgroup$ Commented Apr 4, 2023 at 6:34
  • $\begingroup$ "we never have terminal or initial objects in this category since it's disconnected unless $Cone(F^+)$ or $Cocone(F^−)$ is trivial": why can we say that? $\endgroup$
    – peshel
    Commented Apr 5, 2023 at 3:02
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    $\begingroup$ @peshel coproduct categories are disconnected unless all factors but one are trivial; for a category to have an initial or terminal object it must be connected. (fun exercise in understanding the definition of terminal/initial objects) $\endgroup$
    – Alec Rhea
    Commented Apr 5, 2023 at 3:15

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