8
$\begingroup$

Let $G$ be a finite group, and let $g,h\in G$ be two elements of the same order. Does there exist a larger finite group $G'\ge G$ such that $g,h$ are conjugate in $G'$?

If not, what is known about groups which have this property?

$\endgroup$
5
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @GeoffRobinson why not provide a link to that other question? $\endgroup$
    – KConrad
    Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 18:09
  • 5
    $\begingroup$ math.stackexchange.com/questions/2324939/… $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 18:54
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it has been answered already in a different topic. $\endgroup$
    – R.P.
    Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 21:56
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ I've voted to reopen. Just because this question was answered in the answers to a different question does not mean it is off-topic. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 30, 2017 at 15:52
  • $\begingroup$ @AndyPutman duplicate is not considered as "off-topic". The situation here is peculiar since the first question (one special instance of $G$: of order 8 with $g,h$ of order 2) was asked on MathOF and then moved to MathSE (so that the question can't any longer be closed as duplicate) and possibly it wouldn't have been closed if it had been asked in a more general context. I didn't vote (to close nor to reopen). $\endgroup$
    – YCor
    Commented Jul 2, 2017 at 0:34

3 Answers 3

14
$\begingroup$

Two subgroups are isomorphic iff they are conjugate in some larger finite group.

If you have two subgroups $A,B$ of a finite group $G$ and $\sigma: A\to B$ is an isomorphism. Then there exists a group $G'$ containing $G$ and an element $g'\in G'$ such that $\sigma$ is induced by conjugation by $g'$. For your question this follows by taking $A,B$ to be the cyclic groups generated by your two elements of the same order.

$\endgroup$
5
  • $\begingroup$ The OP asked for a finite group. $\endgroup$
    – user6976
    Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 18:16
  • $\begingroup$ @MarkSapir, Yes, this answer only considers finite groups. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 18:18
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, sorry! I did not notice "finite" in the first line of the answer, and just looked a the rest of the answer. $\endgroup$
    – user6976
    Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 18:32
  • $\begingroup$ @YCor there is a link to a groupprops page with a proof of this specific fact. I personally like groupprops as an encyclopedic resource since it also allows you to search through related theorems and similar statements. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 21:41
  • $\begingroup$ @GjergjiZaimi sorry, I only saw the statement without proof; there's indeed a proof hidden below $\endgroup$
    – YCor
    Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 22:07
15
$\begingroup$

This is a theorem of Bernhard Neumann and his wife (and, as he once told me, can be found in his Collection of Works; he even told me which volume I should look at, but I do not remember; I am sure mathsci can help). A "modern" proof of that fact is easy. Basically suppose that two finite groups $G$ and $H$ are isomorphic. Then take $F=G\times H$ and the HNN extension $T$ of $F$ with associated subgroups $G, H$. In $T$, the subgroups $G$ and $H$ are conjugate. Now, $T$ is infinite, but as every HNN extension of a finite group, $T$ is residually finite because it is virtually free (say, by Stallings ends theorem). Hence $T$ has a finite quotient $R$ such that the natural maps from $G$ and $H$ into $R$ are embeddings. Thus $G$ and $H$ are conjugated subgroups of a finite group $R$.

Edit 1: The paper is this: MR0064042 Neumann, B. H.; Neumann, Hanna "Partial endomorphisms of finite groups." J. London Math. Soc. 29, (1954). 434–440.

If $G$ and $H$ are given as subgroups in the same finite group $F$, then there is no need to take $F= G\times H$.

Edit 2: In fact the paper by Neumanns cited above proves a much stronger result when there is only a homomorphism from $G$ to $H$ (the question is then whether it extends to an endomorphism of a bigger finite group). The fact about arbitrary isomorphic finite subgroups is proved first in Neumann, B. H. (notice the absence of Hanna Neumann) An essay on free products of groups with amalgamations. Philos. Trans. Roy. Soc. London. Ser. A. 246, (1954). 503–554. The paper gives two proofs of this fact (Corollary 18.3). The first uses amalgamated products and is essentially the proof above. The second proof is attributed to Ph. Hall and is essentially the same as Will Sawin's proof discussed in the comments.

$\endgroup$
13
  • 10
    $\begingroup$ Why not a theorem by Hanna Neumann and her husband? $\endgroup$
    – YCor
    Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 21:37
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @YCor: Maybe, because it corresponds to the alphabetical order ? $\endgroup$
    – tj_
    Commented Jun 28, 2017 at 22:51
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ @YCor: because he is the first named author and because I met him and not Hanna Neumann (who was a much more popular mathematician in the USSR, and looked very much similar to my aunt Fania, by the way). $\endgroup$
    – user6976
    Commented Jun 29, 2017 at 0:45
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @MarkSapir That's quite amazing, since from what I gather Hanna was a German (and an aristocratic one, at that). $\endgroup$
    – Igor Rivin
    Commented Jun 29, 2017 at 3:21
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ I still bet that, had you asked him the question, Sylow (or even Cayley) could have answered it pretty quickly. But if your knowledge is as encyclopaedic as you claim, then obviously I have to defer. $\endgroup$
    – HJRW
    Commented Jun 29, 2017 at 14:22
2
$\begingroup$

Since the question was reopened in spite of a duplicate in MathSE, I also "duplicate" my answer from there (a little improved anyway), so as to provide a self-contained answer. I leave it cw since it relies on ideas form other answers and comments.

(a) The answer to the OP's question is yes, and more generally one has:

Fact. Consider a finite group $F$ and two subgroups $A,B$ with an isomorphism $t:A\to B$. Then one can embed $F$ in a larger finite group in which $A$ and $B$ are conjugate (the conjugation inducing the isomorphism $t$ from $A$ to $B$).

This applies in particular to the case when $A,B$ are cyclic subgroups of the same order.

Proof of the fact. $A$ has two free actions on $F$, one being given by $a\cdot g=ag$, the other by $a\cdot g=t(a)g$. Writing $k=|F/A|$, find $k$ points $x_1,\dots,x_k$, one in each orbit of the first action, and $k$ points $y_1,\dots,y_k$, one in each orbit of the second action. Then extend the assignment $x_i\mapsto y_i$ to a permutation $\sigma$ of $F$, by the assignment $\sigma(ax_i)=t(a)y_i$. This is well-defined by freeness of the action. Then $$\sigma(abx_i)=t(ab)y_i=t(a)t(b)y_i=t(a)\sigma(bx_i)$$ for all $a,b\in A$ and $i$, and thus $\sigma(ag)=t(a)\sigma(g)$ for all $a\in A$ and $g\in F$. In other words, $\sigma\circ L_a=L_{t(a)}\circ \sigma$. So in the permutation group of $F$, where $F$ is identified to its image through left multiplication, the isomorphism $t:A\to B$ is realized by conjugation by $\sigma$. $\Box$

This is essentially Will's argument, which was only written for $A,B$ cyclic.

(b) In the same setting, the universal group in which $A$ and $B$ are conjugate through $t$, is the HNN extension $H$ of $(F,A,B,t)$, defined by the relative presentation $$\langle u,G\mid uau^{-1}=t(a),\forall a\in A\rangle.$$

It is well-known that this HNN-extension is virtually free and hence residually finite. Thus, there exists a finite quotient of $H$ in which $F$ is mapped injectively, and in this quotient $A$ and $B$ are indeed conjugate (by $t$).

Of course this argument (mentioned by HJRW in the comments to Will's answer), which looks somewhat immediate at first glance, is less elementary than the one in (a) since it relies on residual finiteness of HNN extensions of finite groups; anyway it's a very natural proof since the construction is universal.

$\endgroup$

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .