Skip to main content
added 674 characters in body
Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.7k
  • 10
  • 111
  • 332

This was previously asked and bountied on MSE:

For brevity, let $T$ be $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$.

Say that an extension of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ is $\omega$-complete iff it has exactly one $\omega$-model up to elementary equivalence. While the $\omega$-incompleteness of $T$ is easily provable in theories only slightly stronger than $T$ itself, I don't immediately see how to do it in $T$ alone. My question is:

Is the theory $S:=T+$ "$T$ is $\omega$-complete" consistent?

Here are a couple observations:

  • If we replace "$\omega$-model" by "well-founded model," the answer is obviously yes under standard assumptions. Let $\alpha$ be the second-smallest ordinal such that $L_\alpha\models\mathsf{ZFC}$. Then $L_\alpha$ also satisfies "$\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ has exactly one well-founded model." Unfortunately, we have no analogous hierarchy of $\omega$-models, so this is a non-starter here.

  • As to the specific choice of theory in question, the point is that (something like) $\mathsf{V=L}$ is needed to block an easy proof of a negative answer via forcing. For example, reasoning in $\mathsf{ZFC}$, if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ had an $\omega$-model $\mathcal{M}$ it would have a countable one $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$, and we could force over $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$ to get a non-elementarily-equivalent $\omega$-model $\hat{\mathcal{N}}$. (Forcing over ill-founded countable models is no harder really than forcing over well-founded ones.) The key point here is that forcing preserves $\mathsf{ZFC}$. This breaks down of course for $\mathsf{V=L}$ and so this argument is irrelevant here. Given the paucity of techniques we currently have for building models of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ in the first place, this seems to be a real issue.

Ultimately I suspect that the answer is negative, but the above two points between them rule out all the lines of attack I've been able to think of so far.


EDIT: In light of Farmer S's answer below, let me explicitly mention a rule of thumb which I forgot: when thinking about properties which are not too far from first-order definable, always consider the hyperarithmetic hierarchy!

For example, for every $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1,\omega}$-sentence $\varphi$, if $\varphi$ has a model then it has a model $M$ which is countable in $L$, and moreover the $L$-least (real coding a) model of $\varphi$ is hyperarithmetic relative to (any real coding) $\varphi$. The property "Is an $\omega$-model of $T$" is expressible as a computable $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1,\omega}$-sentence, and this drives Farmer S's point that $T^+\in L_{\omega_1^{CK}}$.

This was previously asked and bountied on MSE:

For brevity, let $T$ be $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$.

Say that an extension of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ is $\omega$-complete iff it has exactly one $\omega$-model up to elementary equivalence. While the $\omega$-incompleteness of $T$ is easily provable in theories only slightly stronger than $T$ itself, I don't immediately see how to do it in $T$ alone. My question is:

Is the theory $S:=T+$ "$T$ is $\omega$-complete" consistent?

Here are a couple observations:

  • If we replace "$\omega$-model" by "well-founded model," the answer is obviously yes under standard assumptions. Let $\alpha$ be the second-smallest ordinal such that $L_\alpha\models\mathsf{ZFC}$. Then $L_\alpha$ also satisfies "$\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ has exactly one well-founded model." Unfortunately, we have no analogous hierarchy of $\omega$-models, so this is a non-starter here.

  • As to the specific choice of theory in question, the point is that (something like) $\mathsf{V=L}$ is needed to block an easy proof of a negative answer via forcing. For example, reasoning in $\mathsf{ZFC}$, if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ had an $\omega$-model $\mathcal{M}$ it would have a countable one $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$, and we could force over $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$ to get a non-elementarily-equivalent $\omega$-model $\hat{\mathcal{N}}$. (Forcing over ill-founded countable models is no harder really than forcing over well-founded ones.) The key point here is that forcing preserves $\mathsf{ZFC}$. This breaks down of course for $\mathsf{V=L}$ and so this argument is irrelevant here. Given the paucity of techniques we currently have for building models of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ in the first place, this seems to be a real issue.

Ultimately I suspect that the answer is negative, but the above two points between them rule out all the lines of attack I've been able to think of so far.

This was previously asked and bountied on MSE:

For brevity, let $T$ be $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$.

Say that an extension of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ is $\omega$-complete iff it has exactly one $\omega$-model up to elementary equivalence. While the $\omega$-incompleteness of $T$ is easily provable in theories only slightly stronger than $T$ itself, I don't immediately see how to do it in $T$ alone. My question is:

Is the theory $S:=T+$ "$T$ is $\omega$-complete" consistent?

Here are a couple observations:

  • If we replace "$\omega$-model" by "well-founded model," the answer is obviously yes under standard assumptions. Let $\alpha$ be the second-smallest ordinal such that $L_\alpha\models\mathsf{ZFC}$. Then $L_\alpha$ also satisfies "$\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ has exactly one well-founded model." Unfortunately, we have no analogous hierarchy of $\omega$-models, so this is a non-starter here.

  • As to the specific choice of theory in question, the point is that (something like) $\mathsf{V=L}$ is needed to block an easy proof of a negative answer via forcing. For example, reasoning in $\mathsf{ZFC}$, if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ had an $\omega$-model $\mathcal{M}$ it would have a countable one $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$, and we could force over $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$ to get a non-elementarily-equivalent $\omega$-model $\hat{\mathcal{N}}$. (Forcing over ill-founded countable models is no harder really than forcing over well-founded ones.) The key point here is that forcing preserves $\mathsf{ZFC}$. This breaks down of course for $\mathsf{V=L}$ and so this argument is irrelevant here. Given the paucity of techniques we currently have for building models of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ in the first place, this seems to be a real issue.

Ultimately I suspect that the answer is negative, but the above two points between them rule out all the lines of attack I've been able to think of so far.


EDIT: In light of Farmer S's answer below, let me explicitly mention a rule of thumb which I forgot: when thinking about properties which are not too far from first-order definable, always consider the hyperarithmetic hierarchy!

For example, for every $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1,\omega}$-sentence $\varphi$, if $\varphi$ has a model then it has a model $M$ which is countable in $L$, and moreover the $L$-least (real coding a) model of $\varphi$ is hyperarithmetic relative to (any real coding) $\varphi$. The property "Is an $\omega$-model of $T$" is expressible as a computable $\mathcal{L}_{\omega_1,\omega}$-sentence, and this drives Farmer S's point that $T^+\in L_{\omega_1^{CK}}$.

added 3 characters in body
Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.7k
  • 10
  • 111
  • 332

This was previously asked and bountied on MSE:

For brevity, let $T$ be $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$.

Say that an extension of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ is $\omega$-complete iff it has exactly one $\omega$-model up to elementary equivalence. While the $\omega$-incompleteness of $T$ is easily provable in theories only slightly stronger than $T$ itself, I don't immediately see how to do it in $T$ alone. My question is:

Is the theory $T+$$S:=T+$ "$T$ is $\omega$-complete" consistent?

Here are a couple observations:

  • If we replace "$\omega$-model" by "well-founded model," the answer is obviously yes under standard assumptions. Let $\alpha$ be the second-smallest ordinal such that $L_\alpha\models\mathsf{ZFC}$. Then $L_\alpha$ also satisfies "$\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ has exactly one well-founded model." Unfortunately, we have no analogous hierarchy of $\omega$-models, so this is a non-starter here.

  • As to the specific choice of theory in question, the point is that (something like) $\mathsf{V=L}$ is needed to block an easy proof of a negative answer via forcing. For example, reasoning in $\mathsf{ZFC}$, if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ had an $\omega$-model $\mathcal{M}$ it would have a countable one $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$, and we could force over $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$ to get a non-elementarily-equivalent $\omega$-model $\hat{\mathcal{N}}$. (Forcing over ill-founded countable models is no harder really than forcing over well-founded ones.) The key point here is that forcing preserves $\mathsf{ZFC}$. This breaks down of course for $\mathsf{V=L}$ and so this argument is irrelevant here. Given the paucity of techniques we currently have for building models of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ in the first place, this seems to be a real issue.

Ultimately I suspect that the answer is negative, but the above two points between them rule out all the lines of attack I've been able to think of so far.

This was previously asked and bountied on MSE:

For brevity, let $T$ be $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$.

Say that an extension of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ is $\omega$-complete iff it has exactly one $\omega$-model up to elementary equivalence. While the $\omega$-incompleteness of $T$ is easily provable in theories only slightly stronger than $T$ itself, I don't immediately see how to do it in $T$ alone. My question is:

Is the theory $T+$ "$T$ is $\omega$-complete" consistent?

Here are a couple observations:

  • If we replace "$\omega$-model" by "well-founded model," the answer is obviously yes under standard assumptions. Let $\alpha$ be the second-smallest ordinal such that $L_\alpha\models\mathsf{ZFC}$. Then $L_\alpha$ also satisfies "$\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ has exactly one well-founded model." Unfortunately, we have no analogous hierarchy of $\omega$-models, so this is a non-starter here.

  • As to the specific choice of theory in question, the point is that (something like) $\mathsf{V=L}$ is needed to block an easy proof of a negative answer via forcing. For example, reasoning in $\mathsf{ZFC}$, if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ had an $\omega$-model $\mathcal{M}$ it would have a countable one $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$, and we could force over $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$ to get a non-elementarily-equivalent $\omega$-model $\hat{\mathcal{N}}$. (Forcing over ill-founded countable models is no harder really than forcing over well-founded ones.) The key point here is that forcing preserves $\mathsf{ZFC}$. This breaks down of course for $\mathsf{V=L}$ and so this argument is irrelevant here. Given the paucity of techniques we currently have for building models of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ in the first place, this seems to be a real issue.

Ultimately I suspect that the answer is negative, but the above two points between them rule out all the lines of attack I've been able to think of so far.

This was previously asked and bountied on MSE:

For brevity, let $T$ be $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$.

Say that an extension of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ is $\omega$-complete iff it has exactly one $\omega$-model up to elementary equivalence. While the $\omega$-incompleteness of $T$ is easily provable in theories only slightly stronger than $T$ itself, I don't immediately see how to do it in $T$ alone. My question is:

Is the theory $S:=T+$ "$T$ is $\omega$-complete" consistent?

Here are a couple observations:

  • If we replace "$\omega$-model" by "well-founded model," the answer is obviously yes under standard assumptions. Let $\alpha$ be the second-smallest ordinal such that $L_\alpha\models\mathsf{ZFC}$. Then $L_\alpha$ also satisfies "$\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ has exactly one well-founded model." Unfortunately, we have no analogous hierarchy of $\omega$-models, so this is a non-starter here.

  • As to the specific choice of theory in question, the point is that (something like) $\mathsf{V=L}$ is needed to block an easy proof of a negative answer via forcing. For example, reasoning in $\mathsf{ZFC}$, if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ had an $\omega$-model $\mathcal{M}$ it would have a countable one $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$, and we could force over $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$ to get a non-elementarily-equivalent $\omega$-model $\hat{\mathcal{N}}$. (Forcing over ill-founded countable models is no harder really than forcing over well-founded ones.) The key point here is that forcing preserves $\mathsf{ZFC}$. This breaks down of course for $\mathsf{V=L}$ and so this argument is irrelevant here. Given the paucity of techniques we currently have for building models of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ in the first place, this seems to be a real issue.

Ultimately I suspect that the answer is negative, but the above two points between them rule out all the lines of attack I've been able to think of so far.

Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.7k
  • 10
  • 111
  • 332

Is $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ consistently $\omega$-complete?

This was previously asked and bountied on MSE:

For brevity, let $T$ be $\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$.

Say that an extension of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ is $\omega$-complete iff it has exactly one $\omega$-model up to elementary equivalence. While the $\omega$-incompleteness of $T$ is easily provable in theories only slightly stronger than $T$ itself, I don't immediately see how to do it in $T$ alone. My question is:

Is the theory $T+$ "$T$ is $\omega$-complete" consistent?

Here are a couple observations:

  • If we replace "$\omega$-model" by "well-founded model," the answer is obviously yes under standard assumptions. Let $\alpha$ be the second-smallest ordinal such that $L_\alpha\models\mathsf{ZFC}$. Then $L_\alpha$ also satisfies "$\mathsf{ZFC+V=L}$ has exactly one well-founded model." Unfortunately, we have no analogous hierarchy of $\omega$-models, so this is a non-starter here.

  • As to the specific choice of theory in question, the point is that (something like) $\mathsf{V=L}$ is needed to block an easy proof of a negative answer via forcing. For example, reasoning in $\mathsf{ZFC}$, if $\mathsf{ZFC}$ had an $\omega$-model $\mathcal{M}$ it would have a countable one $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$, and we could force over $\hat{\mathcal{M}}$ to get a non-elementarily-equivalent $\omega$-model $\hat{\mathcal{N}}$. (Forcing over ill-founded countable models is no harder really than forcing over well-founded ones.) The key point here is that forcing preserves $\mathsf{ZFC}$. This breaks down of course for $\mathsf{V=L}$ and so this argument is irrelevant here. Given the paucity of techniques we currently have for building models of $\mathsf{ZFC}$ in the first place, this seems to be a real issue.

Ultimately I suspect that the answer is negative, but the above two points between them rule out all the lines of attack I've been able to think of so far.