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The following theory is a theory of classes of ordinals.

Language: Bi-sorted FOL with identity. First sort in lower case ranging over ordinals. Second sort in upper case ranging over classes of ordinals. We take the sorts to be disjoint.

Primitives: $=, \prec , \epsilon$

Syntactical restrictions: $\epsilon$ from first to second sort, $\prec$ between objects of the second sort.

Axioms: $ \textbf{1. Extensionality: }\forall x \, (x \ \epsilon \ X \leftrightarrow x \ \epsilon \ Y) \to X=Y \\ \textbf{2. Comprehension: }\exists X \forall x \, (x \ \epsilon \ X \leftrightarrow \phi) \\ \textbf { Define: } X=\{x \mid \phi\} \iff \forall x \, (x \ \epsilon \ X \leftrightarrow \phi)\\\textbf {3. Well Ordering}^\dagger\textbf{: } \prec \text{is a well-ordering on } classes \\ \textbf{ Define: } x < y \iff \{x\} \prec \{y\}\\\textbf{4. Infinity: } \exists l: \forall x < l \, \exists y \, ( x < y < l) \\\textbf{5. Replacement: } \phi \text { is 1-1 } \to \exists k \forall y \, ( \exists x < l \, (\phi(x,y)) \to y < k) \\ \textbf { Define:} \lim X = \min l: \forall x \ \epsilon \ X (x < l) \\ \textbf{6. Respective: }\lim X < \lim Y \to X \prec Y \\ \textbf{ Define: } \operatorname {Card}(x) \iff \forall y < x \not \exists F (F: \{z \mid z < y\} \to \{z \mid z < x \}) \\\textbf{7. Successor Cardinals: } \forall x \exists \kappa: \operatorname{Card}(\kappa) \land x < \kappa $

Where $F:X \to Y$, denotes $F$ is a function whose domain is $X$ and whose codomain is $Y$. Where $F$ is a class of Gödel's ordered pairs, satisfying the usual qualifications for functions. $\min l: \phi(l)$, is the minimal $l$ that satisfy $\phi(l)$. $\phi \text{ is 1-1}$, means $\phi$ is a formula that defines a one-to-one relation.

The notable difference between this axiomatic system and the theory "$\sf SO$" of sets of ordinals, (besides existence of big classes here) is actually the last axiom of $\sf SO$, that is the Power set axiom.

Now Chapter 4 of the article about $\sf SO$ defines the $*$-recursive sets, and does establish the result that those are exactly the constructible sets of ordinals.

My question:

Is the $*$-recursive sets definable in this system?

The point is that if we can define the $*$-recursive sets, then we can (using successor cardinals) interpret $\sf ZFC$ via constructing $L$. So, we don't need to add Power set axiom.


$\dagger$ this is the axiom scheme of $\prec$ being areflexic, transitive, connected, and well-founded over classes (well-founded is the schema: if $\phi$ is a formula satisfied by some class, then there is some $\prec$-minimal class satisfying $\phi$).

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  • $\begingroup$ Isn't comprehension going to give you a class of all ordinals? This isn't intrinsically a problem, but the respective axiom seems to be written assuming $\lim X$ always exists. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 24, 2023 at 19:05
  • $\begingroup$ @JamesHanson, the respective axiom reads: $$\forall x \forall y \forall X \forall Y (x= \lim X \land y= \lim Y \to [x < y \to X \prec Y])$$. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 24, 2023 at 20:33
  • $\begingroup$ I don't know how detailed you want the answer to be but I believe the answer is yes. Basically my intuition is that once you have enough machinery to code basic set theory, unrestricted replacement and the existence of cardinal successors give you that L is definable and is a model of full ZFC. I don't think you even need several of your axioms, but I'm not sure which. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 24, 2023 at 22:24
  • $\begingroup$ I am confused by your definition: in the beginning it appears that your sort X,Y,Z range over classes of elements, but then when talking about functions it seems that you switch to classes of pairs. With regards to the strength, pretty much sure that any reasonable clarification that would be a theory of classes of pairs of ordinals would interpret ZFC. If you restrict to monadic case (classes of elements), then it is more problematic, since monadic formulas on ordinals are known to have low expressive power, but on top you have your additional order $\prec$, which might make a difference. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 25, 2023 at 12:50
  • $\begingroup$ @FedorPakhomov, yes the Godel pairs are elements. Though it is not necessary to use the Godel pairs, we can use what come to be the Kuratwoski pairs. The point is that we have replacement, so each pair (unordered) can be sent recursively to the limit of all images of the $\prec$ prior pairs. Thus we get unordered pairing, and from it we get to Kuratwoski pairs, and also from it to Godel pairs. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 25, 2023 at 13:03

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