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Below, by "nice structure" I mean "o-minimal expansion of $(\mathbb{R};<)$ by countably many continuous functions and open relations."


Suppose $\mathfrak{A}=(\mathbb{R};<,...)$ is a nice structure in a language $\Sigma$. Letting $U$ be a unary predicate symbol not in $\Sigma$, say that an $\mathfrak{A}$-ordinator is a function $F:C\rightarrow\omega_1$ for some club $C\subseteq\omega_1$ such that there is some $\Sigma[U]$-formula $\varphi(x)$ with the property that for every $\alpha\in C$, if $A\subseteq\mathbb{R}$ has ordertype $\alpha$ then $$\operatorname{otp}(\varphi^{\mathfrak{A},U\mapsto A})=F(\alpha).$$

We can compare $\mathfrak{A}$-ordinators by setting $F\trianglelefteq G$ iff $F(\alpha)\le G(\alpha)$ for club-many $\alpha$; since $\mathfrak{A}$ is required to be reasonably simple, $\mathfrak{A}$-ordinators are always comparable with respect to $\trianglelefteq$. Let $O(\mathfrak{A})$ be the ordertype of the set of $\mathfrak{A}$-ordinators with respect to $\trianglelefteq$. For example, $(\mathbb{R};<,+,1)$ has only one nonconstant ordinator, namely the identity map, essentially due to the fact that we can't "compress" unbounded sets of reals; on the other hand, it's easy to see that $O(\mathbb{R}; <,+,\cdot)$ is much greater. For example, here is a formula $\varphi$ "representing" the map $\alpha\mapsto\alpha+1$ (described somewhat intuitively):

$\varphi(x)$ holds iff each of the following holds:

  • If $U=\emptyset$ then $x=0$.

  • If $U$ has a maximal element then $x\in U\vee x=\max(U)+1$.

  • If $U$ is nonempty and bounded above but has no maximum then $x\in U\vee x=\sup(U)$.

  • If $U$ is not bounded above then $x=1$ or $x\in \widehat{U}$, where $$\widehat{U}=\left\{-1-{1\over u}: u\in U_{<0}\right\}\cup\left\{1-{1\over u}: u\in U_{>0}\right\}.$$

I believe I have arguments showing that $O(\mathfrak{A})$ is always closed under composition and that we can find nice structures with ordinals arbitrarily high below $\omega_1$, but they're each a bit tedious. Nope, both arguments broke down!

Moreover, I can't answer the following hopefully-simple test question:

Question: What is $O(\mathbb{R};<,+,\times)$?

(I'm actually more interested in comparing $O(\mathbb{R};<,+,\times)$ and $O(\mathbb{R};<,+,\times, \mathit{exp})$ but that seems much harder.)


It may also be worth considering modifying the definition of $\mathfrak{A}$-ordinator to require $A$ to be bounded above, in order to make $O(\mathfrak{A})$ (call this version "$O_b(\mathfrak{A})$") potentially interesting even when $\mathfrak{A}$ is quite weak. But since my question is about a sufficiently strong structure, this variation won't matter here.

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  • $\begingroup$ Do you know if every expansion of $(\mathbb{R};<,+,\times)$ by a well-ordered subset of $\mathbb{R}$ is d-minimal? I expect the answer to be no, but I don't know an argument. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 1:26
  • $\begingroup$ @JamesHanson Well, adding the well-ordered set $\mathbb{N}$ lets you define $\mathbb{Q}$, which I think contradicts d-minimality. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 1:33
  • $\begingroup$ Oh duh. I have a feeling it's going to be difficult to get a good handle on how formulas with high quantifier complexity might behave. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 1:41
  • $\begingroup$ @JamesHanson I mean, I think I can give an upper bound of $\omega_1^{CK}$; it might not be too hard to show that $\omega_1^{CK}$ is also a lower bound, without really "getting into the weeds" with specific formulas. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 1:43
  • $\begingroup$ (To be clear I would view that as a disappointing outcome, since it would likely imply that there's no distinctions to be made once we have both addition and multiplication at hand. I'm hoping it's something much smaller.) $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 1:49

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