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Let one Deterministic Counter Net ($\mathrm{1DCN}$), which is a finite-state automata where every state is complete means all states has transition of all input symbols and their respective weight value.

For example, $\mathrm{1DCN}$ below has input symbols $\sigma=\{a,b,c,d\}$, enter image description here

and a Non-deterministic Counter Net ($\mathrm{1CN}$) which is not necessarily complete, For example $\mathrm{1CN}$ is, enter image description here

Also both the machines calculates total weight value along the path of the given string. And total weight value is called the counter value. And the string is accepted when counter value $\geq0.$

Lets say, the input symbols belong to the set $\sigma=\{a,b,c,d\}$ and the counter value is, say $x\geq0.$ Considering above $\mathrm{1CN}$ , the string $cab$ is accepted because the calculated counter value is $1-1+0=0$ but the string $dab$ is not accepted because calculated counter value is $0-1+0=-1,$which is negative.

My question:

  • Given any Deterministic Counter Net ($\mathrm{1DCN}$) called $\mathrm{D}$ and Non-deterministic Counter Net ($\mathrm{1CN}$) called $\mathrm{A}$ which satisfies their above properties, is $L(\mathrm{A})=L(\mathrm{D})$ decidable or not? How to Write an algorithm for it? I know that it is undecidable but unable to prove.

References

Piotr Hofman, Patrick Totzke "Trace Inclusion for One-Counter Nets Revisited".

Piotr Hofman, Richard Mayr, Patrick Totzke "Decidability of Weak Simulation on One-counter Nets".

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    $\begingroup$ "The proposition $L(A) = L(D)$ is undecidable" is a meaningless statement; there is no input to the algorithmic problem, so either it is true or not, and so either the algorithm saying "yes" or the one saying "no" solves it. I really do not know what you mean by "How to write an algorithm for equivalence that is undecidable?". This I cannot parse as a question about what you wrote. Could you clarify? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 10:00
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    $\begingroup$ Could you clarify what exactly is the decision problem you want to ask about? The question you have asked seems to be about the particular automata A and D, and is therefore trivial as a decision problem, as Carl-Fredrik states. But in your comment you suggest that you have in mind another more general decision problem. Please edit your question to state exactly the decision problem you have in mind, in particular specifying the input and desired output. (It is a common beginner's error in decidability questions to be sloppy with such formalism, but the answers often depend on the details.) $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 14:57
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    $\begingroup$ I would suggest further edits to clarify that your A and D pictures are merely examples of the kinds of machines you want to consider, and so question for those machines is one instance of the general decision problem you inquire about. Your question will become much clearer that way. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 15:16
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    $\begingroup$ Well, I'd say you haven't explained the question very well—it is a badly asked question. Most people here, even many of those very familiar with finite state automata, don't necessarily know about counter machines. You should explain them a little. Your machine D seems very silly and so it isn't a good example. Your question has a very bad latex typo. You still haven't properly described the decision problem in terms of input/output. Rather, you mix up the decision problem itself with the question whether the decision problem is computably decidable. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 16:35
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    $\begingroup$ Unfortunately, no. You still conflate the decision problem with the question whether the decision problem is computably decidable. The decision problem is: given a determinist counter net D and a nondeterministic counternet A, answer Yes if L(D)=L(A) and otherwise No. The question you want to ask is: Is that decision problem computably decidable? And the introduction makes no sense, since you say "Let D..." as though D is fixed for the question, but in the decision problem D is a variable, able to take on any value as an input to the decision problem. And you still don't explain counters. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 17:18

1 Answer 1

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This is a partial answer (see note 2 below), but mostly an attempt to rephrase the question into something both meaningful and understandable, so that hopefully someone can answer it.

Let $\sigma$ be a finite set, also known as the alphabet, and $\sigma^*$ the set of words on $\sigma$, i.e., the free monoid on $\sigma$ (consisting of finite sequences of elements of $\sigma$).

A $(\mathbb{Z},\max,+)$-weighted finite automaton on $\sigma$ is given by a finite set $Q$ of states, an element $q_0 \in Q$ known as the initial state, a subset $F \subseteq Q$ known as the accepting states, and a finite subset $\delta \subseteq Q \times \sigma \times \mathbb{Z} \times Q$ known as transitions of the automaton (read $(q,x,v,q') \in \delta$ as “the automaton can jump from state $q$ to state $q'$ while consuming symbol $x$ with multiplicity $v$).

For such an automaton, we define the multiplicity of the word $w = x_1\cdots x_n \in \sigma^*$ to be the max of the $v_1+\cdots+v_n$ ranging over all accepting paths, that is, all $(q_1,\ldots,q_n)$ and $(v_1,\ldots,v_n)$ such that $q_n\in F$ and $(q_{i-1},x_i,v_i,q_i)\in\delta$ for $1\leq i\leq n$ (note that $q_0$ is the initial state defined with the automaton), or $-\infty$ if there is no accepting path at all. The language $L(A)$ defined by the automaton $A$ is the set of words having nonnegative multiplicity (i.e., such that there exists an accepting path with $v_1+\cdots+v_n \geq 0$).

[Note on edit: I had initially written this for automata with weights in the integer ring $(\mathbb{Z},+,\times)$ (so we take the sum of the $v_1\cdots v_n$). But I realize, after re-reading the question, that the indended meaning is for the weights to be in the tropical semiring $(\mathbb{Z}\cup\{-\infty\},\max,+)$ (we can forget about the weight $-\infty$ by simply omitting the transition). I'm sorry if this may have caused further confusion.]

We say that the automaton is deterministic when $\delta$ is actually a function $Q\times\sigma \to \mathbb{Z}\times Q$ (that is, for all $(q,x) \in Q\times \sigma$ there is a unique $(v,q') \in \mathbb{Z}\times Q$ such that $(q,x,v,q') \in \delta$).

Question 1: Is it true that, for every $(\mathbb{Z},\max,+)$-weighted finite automaton $A$ there is a deterministic one $D$ such that $L(D) = L(A)$?

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is “no”, is there an algorithm which, given $A$, decides whether there is such a $D$?

Question 3: Is there an algorithm which, given $A$ for which there is such a $D$, returns such a $D$?

Question 4 (added following JDH's comment): Is there an algorithm which, given $A$ and $D$, with $D$ deterministic, decides whether $L(A) = L(D)$ holds? [Update: see note 2 below.]

Note that if we consider the question of unweighted automata instead (i.e., all weights are assumed to be $0$), then the answer to questions 1 and 3 is “yes”: in this setup, to construct $D$ we consider the powerset of the set of states of $A$, and create a transition $(\mathbf{q},x,\mathbf{q}')$ in $D$ when $\mathbf{q}'$ is the set of $q'$ such that the transition $(q,x,q')$ exists in $A$ for some $q\in \mathbf{q}$; the accepting states of $D$ are those that contain some accepting state of $A$, and the initial state of $D$ is the singleton $\{q_0\}$ of the accepting state of $A$. This is a classical construction from automata theory (“determinization”). The answer to question 4 is also “yes” in this case (the argument proceeds by first determinizing as just explained, then minimizing the resulting automata, and the simply comparing them). But the fact that we can have negative multiplicities completely changes things.

Note 2: the answer to question 4 (for $(\mathbb{Z},\max,+)$-weighted automata) is negative, in fact even if $D$ is the trivial automaton which accepts every word (one state, both initial and finite, and no transition) so that $L(D) = \sigma^*$, there is no algorithm to decide whether $L(A) = \sigma^*$. See Almagor, Boker & Kupferman, “What's decidable about weighted automata?”, theorem 4.1 (taking care that since they use $(\mathbb{Z}\cup\{+\infty\},\min,+)$ as tropical semiring instead of $(\mathbb{Z}\cup\{-\infty\},\max,+)$ as above, the set of words of multiplicity $<1$ in their sense is the set of words of multiplicity $\geq 0$ in the above sense).

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    $\begingroup$ I thought he was trying to ask merely whether the decision problem of whether a given non-deterministic counter machine D accepted the same language as a given determinisitic counter machine A, was decidable. But your interpretation is quite different from this. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 23:43
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    $\begingroup$ @AlokMaity You still haven't asked a clear question, and people are starting to lose patience. I have attempted to ask your question as you should have asked it above, and I have proposed 4 possible questions which may or may not be yours (and provided an answer to question 4). Your job is now to tell us if I have correctly interpreted the definitions, and which of question(s) 1–4 I am proposing is yours. Maybe once we know the question and only then we can start looking into an answer. $\endgroup$
    – Gro-Tsen
    Commented Jul 20, 2023 at 9:28
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    $\begingroup$ What do you mean “example”? The paper I linked to has a proof. I gave a precise reference. I don't understand what more you want. $\endgroup$
    – Gro-Tsen
    Commented Jul 20, 2023 at 15:30
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    $\begingroup$ I use the tropical semiring because I think that's what you're doing in your question (without actually saying it): taking the max of the sum $v_1+\cdots+v_n$ over all accepting paths. That's why I asked you to read my reformulation of your question carefully, and tell me whether it captures your question, and, if not, where it differs. Is it or is it not what you are asking about? (And if not, you need to describe extremely precisely how the automata you're interested in differ from the ones I described.) $\endgroup$
    – Gro-Tsen
    Commented Jul 20, 2023 at 15:34
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    $\begingroup$ Well, it's very unfortunate that you didn't realize this from the start and specify it in your question, rather than edit it after three days (and 40 comments). At this point, this question is unsalvageable. I suggest you open a new one, but only once you know and understand precisely what it is you want to ask, and are sure you can formulate it in clear, unambiguous and mathematically precise (and self-contained) language. (The last link you give is clear about the semantics, but it seems to answer several questions of undecidability, so I don't know what there's left to ask.) $\endgroup$
    – Gro-Tsen
    Commented Jul 22, 2023 at 11:32

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