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Suppose $M_1^\#$ exists and is $\omega_1$-iterable.

Is it consistent that we can go to a generic extension $V[G]$ where $M_1^\#$ is no longer $\omega_1$-iterable?

Or "worse" $M_1^\#$ is no longer 2-iterable in Neeman's sense?

I suspect the answer is yes and that it will be relatively obvious. So more generally, I'm looking for places where problems like these might be addressed.

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  • $\begingroup$ What do you mean by $M_1^\sharp$ if it is not fully iterable? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 3, 2023 at 19:49
  • $\begingroup$ Sorry. I mean $(M_1^\#)^V$. Should I edit it? Happy to. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 3, 2023 at 19:51
  • $\begingroup$ What does 2-iterable in Neeman's sense mean? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 4, 2023 at 17:54
  • $\begingroup$ It means that every omega length iteration tree on M has a cofinal branch whose limit is such that every omega length iteration tree on it has a cofinal wellfounded branch. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 5, 2023 at 14:17
  • $\begingroup$ I should say that the use of 2-iterability wasn't selected for any particular reason other than the fact that it is prima facie very weak. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 0:46

2 Answers 2

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Andreas Lietz has already pointed out that $\omega_1$-iterability can fail in a generic extension. One can also consistently get $(\omega+1)$-iterability to fail:

Suppose there is a transitive model of ZFC + "$M_1^\#$ exists and is $(0,\omega_1)$-iterable", and let $M$ be such with minimal ordinal height. It is easy to see we may assume that $M=L_\alpha[X]$ for some set $X\in M$ of ordinals, where $\alpha=\mathrm{OR}^M$, and we can take $X\subseteq\lambda$ for some strong limit cardinal $\lambda$ of $M$, and $X$ coding $V_\lambda^M$. Let $N=(M_1^{\#})^M$. Let $G$ be $(M,\mathrm{Coll}(\omega,\lambda))$-generic.

I claim that in $M[G]$, $N$ is not $(\omega+1)$-iterable with respect to trees based on $N|\delta^N$ (the Woodin of $N$). For suppose otherwise. We have $M[G]=L_\alpha[x]$ for a certain real $x$, and we can take $x$ to code $X$ in a simple manner. So since $\mathcal{P}(\delta^N)\cap N$ is countable in $M[G]$, working in $M[G]=L_\alpha[x]$, we can form a Neeman genericity iteration on $N$ (see Theorem 3.3 of "AN INNER MODELS PROOF OF THE KECHRIS-MARTIN THEOREM"), producing a tree $\mathcal{T}$ on $N$ of length $\omega$, such that if $b$ is any $\mathcal{T}$-cofinal wellfounded branch, then there is a $\mathrm{Coll}(\omega,\delta^{M^{\mathcal{T}}_b})$-generic $g\in L_\alpha[x]$ with $x\in M^{\mathcal{T}}_b[g]$. But letting $\kappa$ be the critical point of the active extender of $M^{\mathcal{T}}_b$, then note that $\kappa<\alpha$ and $L_\kappa[x]\models$ ZFC and $X\in L_\kappa[x]$. Therefore $L_\kappa[X]\models$ ZFC. But since $\kappa<\alpha$, we have $L_\kappa[X]\subseteq M$, so $V_\lambda^{L_\kappa[X]}=V_\lambda^{M}$, so $L_\kappa[X]\models$ ZFC + "$M_1^{\#}$ exists and is $(0,\omega_1)$-iterable", contradicting the minimality of $\alpha$.

However, one should note that if $M\models$ ZFC + "$M_1^{\#}$ exists and is $(0,\omega_1)$-iterable" and there is a larger model $W$ of ZFC with $M\subseteq W$ and $\mathrm{OR}^M=\mathrm{OR}^W$ and $(M_1^{\#})^M$ is fully iterable in $W$ (so $(M_1^{\#})^M=(M_1^{\#})^W$) then for any set generic extension $M[G]$ with $\mathbb{R}^{M[G]}\subseteq W$, we will have that $(M_1^{\#})^M$ is $(0,\omega+1)$-iterable in $M[G]$. This is just by $\Sigma^1_2$ absoluteness between $M[G]$ and $W$: given a length $\omega$ tree $\mathcal{T}\in M[G]$, there is a $\mathcal{T}$-cofinal wellfounded branch $b\in W$, but this is just a $\Sigma^1_2$ assertion about $\mathcal{T}$ which is true in $W$, hence true in $M[G]$. Of course, the "sharp" at the top of $M^{\mathcal{T}}_b$ need not be iterable.

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  • $\begingroup$ Thanks! I'd noticed the second "However" part, which makes the first part feel so surprising. I'll take a little while to digest, but that's really neat. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 17:26
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Yes, this is possible. If $M_1^\#$ exists and is $\omega_1$-iterable then $x^\#$ exists for all reals $x$: By genericity iterations (either Woodin's or Neeman's version), for any real $x$ there is a countable iterate $N$ of $M_1^\#$ so that $x$ is generic over $N$ for a forcing of size the Woodin cardinal of $N$. So $N[x]$ still "has a sharp" and $x^\#$ exists.

If now, e.g. $M_1^\#$ exists, is $\omega_1$-iterable and $V=L[A]$ for a set $A$, then in the extension by $\mathrm{Col}(\omega, A)$, $(M_1^\#)^V$ cannot be $\omega_1$-iterable.

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    $\begingroup$ Thanks! By `N[x] still "has a sharp"' do you mean that N[x] is still linearly iterable by its final extender? I agree that holds with $\omega_1$-iterablity, but I don't think it holds with mere $(\omega+1)$-iterability. FWIW, I now have an uglier (and still partial) answer to my problem, but yours is definitely preferable. I'd like to understand it better, but think I'm missing something crucial. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 5, 2023 at 22:37
  • $\begingroup$ You’re right, $(\omega+1)$-iterability is not sufficient to prove that the reals are closed under sharps! $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 8:36
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks again! Sorry to be a pain, but I'd like to suggest another minor tweak. I think - at least the proof for - Woodin's genericity iterations requires ($\omega_1+1$)-iterability since we need to suppose for a contradiction that we have a cofinal well-founded branch through the $\omega_1$-length three that we then do the reflection argument on. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 15:38

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