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In most introductory courses to category theory, the precise definition of a set is more-or-less ignored. The idea being that all basic results in the subject hold for any reasonable definition of a set.

At some point one feels that this must cease to be the case. So what is the simplest (a simple) example of a categorical concept or result that actually relies on the details of the definition of a set that one is using?

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    $\begingroup$ Does anyone know the definition of a set ? $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 13:44
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    $\begingroup$ @DmitriPavlov : but then what's a category (hom-sets), a finite limit, etc. ? My point was that no one defines the word "set", or at least the primitive in their theory (e.g. a type if you like type theory) because it doesn't really make sense to do so, they're closer to syntactic objects. Maybe the OP actually wanted to ask about the set theory we use, rather than the definition of set ( I guess if I had to answer I would answer with which set theory we use) $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 15:31
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    $\begingroup$ The excellent survey by Mike Shulman at arxiv.org/abs/0810.1279 presents a couple of options for set theories to use for category theory. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 15:56
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    $\begingroup$ @DmitriPavlov : as pointed out in the comments below Tim's answer, "a vector" is not a well-defined thing, anything is a vector (anything is an element of a vector space if you let me pick the vector space). "A vector in $V$" is completely well-defined if you defined $V$. As suggested again in those comments, in the most common math foundation, everything is defined except precisely what a set is (or a type, etc.). My view is that it does not matter and that it is not a sensible question, but still. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:28
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    $\begingroup$ A set is a collection of things. That’s what it is. It comes from ordinary language and human intuition. The real question is what are the rules and axioms for forming sets. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 15:09

2 Answers 2

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I didn't have time to write up a proper answer on initially seeing your question and much of what I have to say has been said in the comments and Tim's answer, but I'll still offer some specifics on things mentioned in the comments.

The definition of a set is, as Tim Campion pointed out, the axioms of whatever set theory you're working in. They do not so much define a set as describe a primitive notion that behaves like what we think sets should behave like, with different axiomatizations giving rise to differing notions of set.

These differing axiomatizations do have an impact on category theory because they change the behavior of ${\bf Set}$, and consequently the behavior of presheaf categories, and they also impact our ability to manipulate large categories. As mentioned by Ingo Blechschmidt in the comments, Mike Shulman has an excellent paper surveying some of these consequences. I will summarize some of them here, but I highly recommend you check out his paper.

A striking result referenced in the Shulman paper is due to Colin McLarty, establishing that the NF axiomatization of what a set is yields a ${\bf Set}$ that isn't Cartesian closed.

In ZFC we really only run into issues if we want to manipulate large categories as a whole, for example ${\bf Set}$ or ${\bf Group}$, which are not actually objects in ZFC since they're proper classes. We can get around this with shenanigans about formulas the metalanguage, but anyone looking for an integrated and 'natural' treatment of large categories on level footing with small ones will be disappointed in this setting.

NBG is a conservative extension of ZFC (meaning it doesn't prove anything about sets that ZFC can't) which does allow proper classes to be real objects in the theory, but we still run into some discomfort when dealing with large categories. NBG manages to be conservative over ZFC by restricting it's comprehension axiom to only apply to sets, not proper classes -- in practical terms, as Mike points out in his paper linked above, this means (for example) that we can't prove by induction that a large category $\mathcal{C}$ has an $n$-fold Cartesian product $\mathcal{C}^n$. We can get around this by constructing it directly as the category of functions from $n$ into $\mathcal{C}$, but the unavailability of canonical proof methods like induction is troubling.

MK is a non-conservative extension of ZFC, essentially NBG but with full class comprehension allowed so we have access to all of the standard proof tools for large categories. This new theory can prove things ZFC can't, like the consistency of ZFC, and is thusly strictly stronger in a meaningful sense. MK also has its own serious issues when working with large categories -- we can't define the category of functors between two large categories, and this applies to NBG as well.

Using full MK further suggests that we try to look at the category of classes, since they're really the category of collections we want to work with right? And bam, once again we're back to a situation where we have to play games in the metalanguage, or conservatively extend/step up the consistency strength of our theory. This leads mathematicians to situations like Grothendieck universes, where it's always possible to step up to the next universe if we need to talk about 'all the somethings' in the current universe. This is equivalent to working in ZFC plus an axiom asserting the existence of an inaccessible cardinal.

All the extra baggage of universes or inaccessibles is still somewhat of a sledgehammer for the problem at hand, though; all we want is for large categories to 'be like small categories' in enough ways that we can carry out all the constructions we care about with large categories, but inaccessibles or Grothendieck universes also have a plethora of other consequences (like the need to juggle universes1). A solution to these problems comes in the form of reflection principles, which are essentially axioms asserting that proper classes look enough like sets that we don't have to soil ourselves when they appear, but don't endow them with enough independence to give rise to a whole hierarchy of universes we need to ask questions about. All of this is discussed at length in the Shulman paper referenced above, with additional references therein.

First paper: Shulman, Mike. Set theory for category theory. arXiv:0810.1279v2 [math.CT]

Second paper: McLarty, Colin. Failure of Cartesian Closedness in NF. J. Symbolic Logic 57 (1992), no. 2, 555--556. https://doi.org/10.2307/2275291


1As Tim points out in the comments, how many universes we have to juggle when taking this route is up to us. Skilled jugglers may use an infinite number, while those new to the approach may use only two.

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  • $\begingroup$ Nice answer! Just to nitpick -- when working with Grothendieck universes, there is some freedom to decide just how many universes / inaccessibles we're assuming to exist. Your description in words seems to describe the assumption of a proper class of inaccessibles, or at least infinitely many, while your formal gloss only assumes one inaccessible. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 15:07
  • $\begingroup$ @TimCampion Game recognize game. $\endgroup$
    – Alec Rhea
    Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 15:08
  • $\begingroup$ (nitpick game that is) $\endgroup$
    – Alec Rhea
    Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 15:27
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    $\begingroup$ The nitpick game is a fun way to learn stuff. I like to nitpick mostly just to make sure I'm not missing something that makes my nitpick incorrect :) $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 15:31
  • $\begingroup$ So would the tl;dr be that there's a technical solution to the issues that can arise, but when first learning about category theory you don't focus on this because it's somewhat ancillary to the purpose of the theory? $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 16:14
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To consolidate a clarification from the comments:

In mathematics as normally practiced, there is no such thing as a "definition" of the notion of set. There are various axiomatic theories one can use to reason about objects which we call "sets" (or think of as "set-like"), such as ZFC, ETCS, type theory, etc. But in these theories, "set" is typically a primitive, undefined notion. This is much as in classical Euclidean geometry, where the terms "point", "line", etc. are undefined, but we have well-defined rules for reasoning about them. The only place you would "define what a set is" is if you were constructing a model of one of these theories -- then you have to define what the model is going to say a "set" is, relative to whatever metatheory you're using.

But I think the larger question is -- "when does one have to worry about set-theoretic details when doing category theory?" The question is a bit ill-defined, but maybe there are a few things to say anyway:

  • The most prominent "set-theoretic consideration" in category theory is that of size. When doing category theory, it's important to develop a sense for which "set-like things" one considers are actually sets, and which ones are "too big to be sets" -- i.e. are actually proper classes [1]. Two theorems of basic category theory come immediately to mind -- both due to Freyd:
  1. Any small category with all small products is a preorder. This theorem tells us that if we want to work with completeness conditions in category theory, then we really have to live with the fact that there's a difference between large and small.

  2. The adjoint functor theorem crucially requires that certain collections appearing in the hypotheses be small (i.e. that they be sets rather than proper classes). The standard counterexample is: for each cardinality $\kappa$, let $G_\kappa$ be a simple group of cardinality $\kappa$, and define $F: Grp \to Set$ to be the functor $G \mapsto \prod_\kappa Hom(G_\kappa,G)$. This functor preserves limits, but has no left adjoint.

  • There are also "set-theoretic considerations" which are really just an annoyance. For instance, for most purposes it doesn't matter whether, say, the category $Ab$ of abelian groups is skeletal or not (because $Ab$ is equivalent to any of its skeleta, which are all isomorphic -- there is nothing special about $Ab$ here). But sometimes you might want to do something like take the product of all countable abelian groups. When you do this, it technically matters -- if $Ab$ is skeletal, this is a perfectly well-defined small abelian group, whereas if $Ab$ is defined as usual in ZFC say, there is a proper class of countable abelian groups (though just a small number of isomorphism classes). So to perform this construction in usual set theory, you should probably say something like "the product of one copy from each isomorphism class of countable abelian groups" and then proceed as you would have otherwise.

[1] In this post, I will use the language of a set / class distinction to talk about size. There are also other approaches, most notably the approach of using one or more Grothendieck universes. In the Grothendieck universe approach, there are no proper classes -- everything is a set. It's just that some sets are "small" while others are "large".

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    $\begingroup$ I'm deeply confused by this answer. I thought a very standard point of view was that ZFC does define what a set is, in much the same way that the axioms of Turing machines define what an algorithm is (i.e., it makes some vague but intuitive idea mathematically precise). $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:00
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    $\begingroup$ @SamHopkins I hope we can at least agree on the following. There is a narrow sense of "definition" in mathematics, where we define what one object is in terms of previously-defined objects. E.g. when we define $\mathbb R$ to be the set of Dedekind cuts in $\mathbb Q$, this is a definition. When we define a group to be a model of the theory of groups, this is a definition. In this narrow sense at least, we never define what a "set" is, because there are no previously-defined concepts in terms of which to define it. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:08
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    $\begingroup$ @SamHopkins I agree with Tim. The $\mathsf{ZFC}$ axioms describe how sets relate to each other via $\in$, but they don't tell us what a set "is" in a good sense. The right analogy in my mind is: the triple (ZFC, ZFC-models, objects in ZFC-models) is similar to the triple (group axioms, groups, elements of groups). The group axioms define groups, not elements of groups, and in fact we never define what an element of a group is. Similarly, it's hard to pin down a sense in which we define what a set is. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:12
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    $\begingroup$ @SamHopkins I don't think this "attitude" (or rather, this definition of "definition") leads to the conclusion that we never define anything in mathematics. In fact, it seems to me that the most "standard" understanding of what we do in mathematics is that "set" is the only formally undefined notion, and everything else is defined in terms of it. A group is defined to be a model of the group axioms. The term "element of the group $G$" is well-defined for any given $G$, but the term "element of a group" is not defined (it's a silly notion anyway -- anything is an element of some group). $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:23
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    $\begingroup$ @DmitriPavlov #2 Sure, maybe I didn't phrase that so well. I think we agree that "element of a group" doesn't mean much unless it comes along with a group to be an element of. And I was mostly trying to discuss the situation with respect to the most "standard" foundation in ZFC. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 0:29

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