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(Pierre Gillibert asked me this question and I post it with his permission.)

Let $X$ be an infinite set, and $f\colon[X]^\omega\to[X]^\omega$. We say that $\{x_n\mid n<\omega\}\subseteq X$ is a free decreasing sequence (for $f$) if for all $n$, $x_n\notin f(\{x_k\mid k>n\})$.

Is there an infinite set $X$ such that for every isotone $f\colon[X]^\omega\to[X]^\omega$ there exists a free decreasing sequence? Is it at least consistent from assumptions such as $V=L$, large cardinals or strong forcing axioms?

Some observations:

  1. It is clear that $X$ is uncountable, because otherwise $f(A)=X$ for all $A\in[X]^\omega$ would pose a counterexample.

  2. If there is no such set of size $\kappa$, then there is no such example of size $\kappa^+$.

  3. If $\kappa$ has uncountable cofinality, and there is no such set of size $<\kappa$, then there is no example of size $\kappa$, since we can "glue" counterexamples and use the fact that every countable set is bounded (this is in effect the same proof for the previous observation).

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  • $\begingroup$ You mention "isotone" functions, but what is the order here? $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6, 2017 at 14:36
  • $\begingroup$ Inclusion, of course. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 6, 2017 at 14:36
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    $\begingroup$ @Yair: You can always assume that $x\subseteq f(x)$, by replacing $f$ with $f(x)\cup x$. When I say $f$ is isotone, I just mean that $x\subseteq y$ implies $f(x)\subseteq f(y)$. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 6, 2017 at 14:44
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    $\begingroup$ @Yair: Just the usual definition of $[X]^\omega$. All the countably infinite subsets of $X$. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 6, 2017 at 14:55
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    $\begingroup$ Indeed. But it wasn't spelled out that it is an element of $X$ either and with all fancy notation I got totally confused. You are right: there is a unique reading that makes everything fit together, but it is not very easy to discern :-) $\endgroup$
    – fedja
    Commented Dec 6, 2017 at 15:02

1 Answer 1

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Here's a long, possibly unhelpful comment making use of a presumably excessive large cardinal assumption.

Suppose that $\lambda$ is an uncountable cardinal and that there is a nontrivial elementary embedding $j \colon L(V_{\lambda + 1}) \to L(V_{\lambda + 1})$ with critical point less than $\lambda$. So we are assuming that the large cardinal axiom I0 holds (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rank-into-rank), with $\lambda$ here as the $\lambda$ there.

Note that (1) $j(\lambda) = \lambda$, (2), $j[\lambda]$ is in $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$ and (3) $[\lambda]^{\omega} \subseteq L(V_{\lambda + 1})$.

It seems that $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$ thinks that $\lambda$ is an $X$ as desired.

Claim : In $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$, for any $f : [\lambda]^{\omega} \to [\lambda]^{\omega}$ (not necessarily isotone) there exist an $\alpha < \lambda$ and an $X \subseteq \lambda$ of cardinality $\lambda$ such that $\alpha$ is not in $\bigcup f[[X]^{\omega}]$.

Applying the claim iteratively ought to let us build an independent family for any given $f$ in $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$. The output of our iterative construction is then in $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$, showing that $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$ thinks that $\lambda$ is as desired. Note that $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$ is not a model of Choice, so maybe this doesn't address the question.

Proof of claim. Let $f : [\lambda]^{\omega} \to [\lambda]^{\omega}$ in $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$ be given. Let $Z$ denote $j[\lambda]$. Let $\alpha$ be an element of $\lambda \setminus Z$ (for instance, the critical point of $j$). If $x$ is a countable subset of $Z$, then $x = j(y)$ for some $y \in [\lambda]^{\omega}$ (the pointwise $j$-preimage of $x$), so $j(f)(x) = j(f(y))$, which is contained in $Z$, so $j(f)(x)$ does not have $\alpha$ as a member. Then, in $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$, $Z$ is a subset of $\lambda$ of cardinality $\lambda$, and $\alpha$ is not in $\bigcup j(f)[[Z]^{\omega}]$. By the elementarity of $j$, then, we have the conclusion of the claim : there exist an $\alpha < \lambda$ and an $X \subseteq \lambda$ of cardinality $\lambda$ such that $\alpha$ is not in $\bigcup f[[X]^{\omega}]$.

Since I'm not using the isotone condition, then at least one of the following should hold : (1) I'm making a mistake (very likely), (2) the first sentence of the December 7 comment above uses more Choice than holds in $L(V_{\lambda + 1})$ or (3) I0 is inconsistent.

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  • $\begingroup$ Which December 7th comment? Can you provide a link to it? (the timestamp functions as a direct link.) $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 6:32
  • $\begingroup$ Also, Pierre was interested in models of ZFC. But I will talk to him today and see what he has to say on your answer. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 6:41
  • $\begingroup$ When you "build the function iteratively", how do you choose $X$ at each step? In fact, how do you actually construct the family? $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45
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    $\begingroup$ This seems to give that the existence of a Reinhardt cardinal is inconsistent with ZF + DC plus a selector for the mod-finite equivalence classes of the countable subsets of the first fixed point (above the critical point). I don't know if this was previously known. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 15:55
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    $\begingroup$ Arguing outside the universe is what absoluteness is for. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 13, 2017 at 15:56

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