6
$\begingroup$

Acknowledging Woodin's result on $\Sigma^2_1$-absoluteness for forcing-models satisfying the continuum hypothesis (CH), it is natural to ask:

Are there examples of statements $\phi$ in "the usual realm of mathematics" that cannot de decided in ZFC + CH?

Surely modern mathematicians (oblivious of metamathematics) could have naturally come up with problems of complexity beyond $\Sigma^2_1$ that are provably undecidable in ZFC + CH.

A ZFC example to contrast with would be Borel's conjecture.

But what are the ZFC + CH examples if any?

$\endgroup$
5
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ What is "the usual realm of mathematics"? two obvious examples: Diamond is $\Sigma^2_2$ and not decidable in this theory. There are also many examples of statements regarding Suslin lines or Suslin trees. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2017 at 20:11
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ The main lesson of the independence phenomenon is that it is pervasive in mathematics and to be found at essentially every nontrivial level of complexity. For example, there are hundreds of statements even just about arithmetic, asserting that certain integer polynomial equations have solutions in the integers, and we can write the equations down explicitly, which are independent of ZFC+CH. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2017 at 21:46
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ One can cast those assertions equivalently as asserting that certain Turing machines halt, that certain definable graphs have certain colorings, that certain trees have no infinite branches, that certain sets of tiles admit no tiling of the plane, and so on. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2017 at 21:46
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ Hugh's result is in the presence of large cardinals. Provability is established in that setting, rather than in ZFC + CH, and is not about all sentences, but only those (of appropriate complexity) whose consistency can be established by set forcing. In particular, there are no arithmetic sentences whose independence can be shown this way, since forcing fixes the arithmetic, in fact the $\Sigma^1_2$, theory (and more, because of the large cardinals). $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 6, 2017 at 22:26
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ Often, it's pointless to make a weaker statement after a stronger one has already been made, but in this case, it might be useful to mention that, among the "many examples of [independent of ZFC+CH] statements regarding Suslin lines or Suslin trees" mentioned in Andrés Caicedo's first comment is the particularly simple statement "There is a Suslin line." $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 9, 2017 at 23:22

2 Answers 2

8
$\begingroup$

I wanted to add a couple of examples in addition to those mentioned in the comments.

In algebra, Shelah's work on the Whitehead Problem established that the statement ``All Whitehead groups are free'' is independent of ZFC + CH. He originally proved the statement's independence from ZFC, and then developed forcing techniques for getting independence from ZFC + CH.

In set-theoretic topology, I've done a lot of work on building "interesting" models of ZFC+CH using iterated forcing. For example, the following statement is not decided by ZFC + CH:

"a first countable countably compact (=every infinite set has a point of accumulation) space is either compact or contains a subspace homeomorphic to $\omega_1$"

Counterexamples to this can be built from $\diamondsuit$; constructions due to Ostaszewski and Fedorcuk are the most well-known.

Independence from ZFC was established in a flush of results from the late 1980s involving Balogh, Dow, Fremlin, and Nyikos (and others as well). In particular, the statement is a consequence of PFA.

We established that the statement is consistent with ZFC + CH in joint work with Nyikos, so taken with the $\diamondsuit$ results we have the required independence.

The best result we have along these lines (done with Alan Dow) is that ZFC + CH is consistent with "compact countably tight spaces are sequential''.

Here a space $X$ is countably tight if whenever $x$ is in the closure a set $A\subseteq X$ if and only if $x$ is in the closure of a countable subset of $A$. A space $X$ is sequential if a subset $A$ of $X$ is closed if and only if it is sequentially closed. Roughly speaking, the statement "compact countably tight spaces are sequential" says that if the topology of a compact space is determined by its countable subsets, then it is determined by its convergent sequences".

Again, this statement is a consequence of PFA (a famous result of Balogh), and in the other direction $\diamondsuit$ provides us with counterexamples -- in fact, Fedorcuk showed that $\diamondsuit$ entails the existence of a compact countably tight hereditarily separable space of size $2^{\aleph_1}$ with no convergent sequences at all.

The work we did with Dow proves the statement is consistent with (and therefore independent from) ZFC + CH.

$\endgroup$
6
$\begingroup$

Is there a definable non-measurable set?

(Here I mean definable without parameters -- it is cheating if you define it from an ultrafilter, or a well-ordering of $\mathbb R$, without first defining those too.)

The answer to this question is independent of ZFC+CH. The answer is yes if $V=L$, but it becomes no if you add a Cohen real or a random real in certain forcing extensions.

I'm not sure whether or not you consider this question to lie within the realm of "usual mathematics" -- but it is a question that I would imagine a wide variety of mathematicians have asked at some point (not just set theorists or logicians).

EDIT: Over the weekend I realized that I'd made a mistaken claim in this post, namely that adding a Cohen or random real to a model of ZFC+V=L produces a model with no parameter-free-definable non-measurable sets.

(I think I might have made the substitution ''ultrafilter'' $\rightarrow$ ''non-measurable set'' in the back of my mind; adding a Cohen or random real does produce a model without parameter-free-definable ultrafilters.)

For adding a random real, what I claimed is definitely false. If $r$ is random over $L$, then $L[r]$ admits a non-measurable set with a particularly simple definition (only three symbols!), namely $L \cap \mathbb R$. This can be deduced from Example 26.51 in Jech's book (and Jech attributes the example to Solovay).

I don't know whether adding a single Cohen real to $L$ results in a model without parameter-free-definable non-measurable sets.

In his famous paper in which he proved that there is a model of ZF+DC in which every set of reals is measurable, Solovay shows that there is a forcing extension of $L$ where every non-measurable set of reals fails to be definable (in fact, he shows much more: no non-measurable set of reals is definable from a countable sequence of ordinals). His forcing construction uses an inaccessible cardinal, so all I can say for certain is that ``there exists a definable non-measurable set'' is independent of ZFC+CH assuming the consistency of ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal".

$\endgroup$
1
  • $\begingroup$ +1. FWIW I think this gets more compelling when we specifically ask about projective sets, since the notion of projective set is similarly natural to that of Borel set: start with a class of "simple" sets, and close under reasonably natural analysis-y operations. (I would say "analytic," but, well, ...) $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 21:36

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .