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The usual use of forcing begins with a "countable" and "transitive" ground model of $ZFC$ and reaches to a "countable" and "transitive" generic model of $ZFC$ with the "same ordinals". In a discussion a colleague told me about a special forcing by Solovay which begins with a countable transitive model of $ZFC$ and reaches to an "uncountable" transitive generic model. My question is about these kind of special forcings and their possible special uses.

Question: Please introduce a reference about any use of forcing with at least one of the below characteristics:

(a) The ground model is uncountable.

(b) The ground model is not transitive.

(c) The generic model is uncountable.

(d) The generic model is not transitive.

(e) The generic model has more ordinals than ground model.

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  • $\begingroup$ You should define what you mean by "forcing". Such "forcings" would have to deviate so much from the usual one that it's unclear that the name "forcing" should apply. For example, in your claimed example by Solovay, it is impossible for every set in the generic extension to have a ground model name. I would have a very hard time calling whatever this is a "forcing" and I doubt this method is of much use in relative consistency proofs. $\endgroup$ Oct 13, 2013 at 14:18
  • $\begingroup$ @François: Dear François, as a definition for a "forcing" I mean: "A forcing method in set theory is a model constructing algorithm using a ground model of $ZFC$ like $M$ and a partial order $\mathbb{P}$ in it to produce a generic model of $ZFC$ like $M[G]$". $\endgroup$
    – user36136
    Oct 13, 2013 at 14:43
  • $\begingroup$ Does the purported example by Solovay fit this pattern? Since your description makes no relationship between $M$, $\mathbb{P}$, and $M[G]$, I guess it does. Nevertheless, how do names work? $\endgroup$ Oct 13, 2013 at 15:31
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    $\begingroup$ The proposed definition of "forcing" seems to beg the question by requiring the result to be "a generic model of ZFC like $M[G]$", and thus defining "forcing" in terms of "generic model". What models should count as generic in this context? $\endgroup$ Oct 13, 2013 at 15:38
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    $\begingroup$ I don't really understand the downvote or the vote to close. It seems to be a perfectly reasonable on-topic question, and one that many people who are learning forcing have had, since some of the introductory accounts do emphasize the countable transitive model approach. $\endgroup$ Oct 13, 2013 at 18:47

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I don't agree that the "usual" use of forcing uses only countable transitive models. Perhaps this used to be true, years ago, and forcing is sometimes still taught this way now, because it is somewhat easier to see where the generic filters come from, but neither hypothesis is actually needed to develop a full theory of forcing, and I think that these days it is quite common to understand forcing as an internal ZFC construction that works over any model, not just the countable transitive models.

For example, the Boolean-value approach to forcing allows us to make sense of forcing over the universe, within ZFC. One defines the Boolean values $[\![\varphi]\!]$ for any formula $\varphi$ in the forcing language, by induction on $\varphi$. This allows one to speak of which statements are forceable or not over any model of set theory, and suffices for the consistency proofs.

Meanwhile, one can turn the Boolean-valued model $V^{\mathbb{B}}$ into an actual classical 2-valued model simply by taking the quotient by an ultrafilter $U\subset\mathbb{B}$, and there is no need for $U$ to be $V$-generic in this process, and even $U\in V$ is completely fine. The elements of the quotient are the equivalence classes with respect to the relation $\sigma\sim_U\tau\iff [\![\sigma=\tau]\!]\in U$. This is not the same as the usual value $\text{val}(\sigma,U)$ assignment, except when $U$ is $V$-generic. This gives rise to the Boolean ultrapower map $j:V\to \check V_U$, defined by $j:x\mapsto [\check x]_U$, which is an elementary embedding of $V$ into the class model $\check V_U$, and $\check V_U$ has its forcing extension $\check V_U[G]$ as a class inside $V$. The generic object $G$ is simply the equivalence class of the name of the generic object $G=[\dot G]_U$. Thus, one never needs to leave $V$ to speak of the forcing extensions of $V$. When there are large cardinals, one can even arrange that $\check V_U$ is transitive, and these Boolean ultrapowers can be viewed as large cardinal embeddings.

Dan Seabold and I give a fairly thorough account of the Boolean ultrapower in our paper Boolean ultrapowers as large cardinal embeddings. In particular, this paper contains examples of all of the types of examples you request.

Update. Here is an example that may be more like what you had wanted.

Theorem. If there is a supercompact cardinal, then there is transitive inner model, containing all ordinals, with a Laver indestructible supercompact cardinal. Similarly, there is an inner model with a supercompact cardinal $\kappa$ for which $2^\kappa=\kappa^+$ and another with a supercompact cardinal $\kappa$ for which $2^\kappa>\kappa^+$.

Proof. These results and others like it appear in A. Apter, V. Gitman, J. D. Hamkins, “Inner models with large cardinal features usually obtained by forcing,” Archive for Mathematical Logic, 51(2012):257-283. Suppose that $\kappa$ is supercompact in $V$. Let $j:V\to M$ be a $\theta$-supercompactness embedding for some $\theta$ for which $2^{\theta^{\lt\kappa}}=\theta^+$. (This is possible because the SCH holds above any supercompact cardinal.) Let $\mathbb{P}$ be the Laver preparation forcing for $j(\kappa)$ as defined in $M$, but starting above $\theta$. Thus, $\mathbb{P}$ is $\leq\theta$-closed in $M$ and hence also in $V$, and by counting we can see that there are only $\theta^+$ many dense subsets of $\mathbb{P}$ in $V$. So in $V$ we may construct an $M$-generic filter $G\subset \mathbb{P}$. Thus, $M[G]$ is a transitive inner model of $V$ in which $j(\kappa)$ is a Laver indestructible supercompact cardinal. By also combining $\mathbb{P}$ with further forcing, we can ensure that the GCH holds or fails at $j(\kappa)$, or a variety of other situations. QED

The general theorem here is the following, where a partial order $\mathbb{Q}$ is $\lt\kappa$-friendly, if for every $\delta\lt\kappa$, there is a condition below which $\mathbb{Q}$ adds no new subsets to $\delta$.

Theorem.(Seabold, Hamkins) If $\kappa$ is strongly compact, then for any $\lt\kappa$-friendly notion of forcing, there is a transitive inner model satisfying every sentence forced by $\mathbb{Q}$ over $V$.

The proof uses Boolean ultrapowers, and the point is that strong compactness is enough to enable one to find a well-founded Boolean ultrapower.

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  • $\begingroup$ Dear Joel, according to your comprehensive answer it seems that my picture of forcing is not accurate or at least is very classic. Perhaps you can give a better answer to the François's "philosophical" question about the "current" meaning of a "forcing" construction method in set theory. $\endgroup$
    – user36136
    Oct 13, 2013 at 15:25
  • $\begingroup$ I am not sure to which construction of Solovay you are referring. But I am reminded of the construction of various uncountable Paris models: these are uncountable models of ZF in which every ordinal is definable without parameters (and in particular, there are only countably many such ordinals). Ali Enayat has done some interesting work with these models, see academic2.american.edu/~enayat/DO.pdf. $\endgroup$ Oct 13, 2013 at 15:29
  • $\begingroup$ Dear Joel, I didn't see the paper. That colleague was Mohammad, I hope he can give us the exact reference. As I remember he said the paper is rather outdated and Solovay has very few works in this direction. Both of your references are very interesting. Thanks. $\endgroup$
    – user36136
    Oct 13, 2013 at 16:12
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This answer supplements the ones given by Hamkins and Golshani.

1. To my knowledge, the first paper to study the construction of generic extensions over uncountable models is the following:

John L. Bell, Uncountable models of ZFC + V $\neq$ L, in Lecture Notes in Math., vol. 537, pp.29-36 (1976).

In the above paper, Bell first shows that if ZFC has a natural model (i.e., one of the form $V_\alpha$ for some $\alpha$), then there are transitive models of ZFC + V $\neq$ L for all cardinalities below $\alpha$.

Bell's paper also includes a result, due independently to Kunen and Vopěnka, which states that if there is an uncountable transitive model of ZFC, then there is an uncountable transitive model of ZFC + V $\neq$ L.

2. It is a theorem of ZFC plus $\diamond_{\aleph_1}$ that $(*)$ below holds:

$(*)$ Every consistent extension of ZFC has a model $M$ of power $\aleph_1$ such that for any poset $P$ in $M$, and any filter $G$ over $P$, $G$ is $P$-generic over $M$ iff $G$ is already coded in $M$ (in other words, $M$ has no nontrivial generic extensions).

Note that in $(*)$ $M$ is not claimed to be transitive. An outline of the proof of (2), which relies heavily on a beautiful theorem of Matti Rubin, can be be found on p.1007 of the following paper of mine:

Ali Enayat, Conservative extensions of models of set thery and generalizations, Journal of Symbolic Logic, vol. 51, pp.1005-1021 (1986).

3. It can be shown, using some deep absoluteness arguments due to Shelah and Schmerl (detailed in the paper below), that indeed $(*)$ is a theorem of ZFC.

James Schmerl, Elementary extensions of models of set theory, Arch. Math. Logic 39 (2000), pp. 509–514.

PS. I need to fuse this account with the one which carries my name, but I have not gotten around to it.

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  • $\begingroup$ I'm always happy to see citations of Matti. He was one of my favorite teachers. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Oct 16, 2013 at 20:22
  • $\begingroup$ (Also, I'm glad to see you active on the site again!) $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Oct 16, 2013 at 20:45
  • $\begingroup$ Dear Prof. Enayat. Thank you for your useful references. I will be really happy to see you at coming conference in Tehran. $\endgroup$
    – user36136
    Oct 17, 2013 at 10:28
  • $\begingroup$ Mr. Daghighi: you are welcome; see you in Tehran. $\endgroup$
    – Ali Enayat
    Oct 17, 2013 at 18:10
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The reference is " Felgner, Choice functions on sets and classes, Sets and classes (on the work by Paul Bernays), pp. 217–255. Studies in Logic and the Foundations of Math., Vol. 84, North-Holland, Amsterdam, 1976".

In the paper, it is stated that: "However, it is remarkable, that by a modification of Cohen’s method, it is possible to obtain uncountable generic extensions of countable models. This device is due to Solovay."

The Solovay construction is presented in the paper, which is used to show the independence of AC from ZF.

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  • $\begingroup$ Dear Mohammad, thank you for your reference. $\endgroup$
    – user36136
    Oct 14, 2013 at 4:00
  • $\begingroup$ Would it be possible for you kindly to summarize the construction? $\endgroup$ Oct 14, 2013 at 4:03
  • $\begingroup$ Dear Prof. Hamkins, the construction is rather long, so I will send you a copy of the paper. It starts from pape 220. $\endgroup$ Oct 14, 2013 at 4:21
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for the reference, Mohammad! It would be nice if all these different results on "wide" transitive models of $\mathsf{ZF}$ with "few" ordinals were collected in an easily accessible place. It does not seem that many people are aware of them nowadays. (I myself only found out about them while first looking at this question.) $\endgroup$ Oct 14, 2013 at 5:02
  • $\begingroup$ (I believe you mean "the independence" of AC from ZF.) $\endgroup$ Oct 14, 2013 at 5:17

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