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Lambek and Scott demonstrate in Introduction to higher order categorical logic the existence of a parametrized nno when we are in a cartesian closed category (CCC) with a "simple nno" and suggest the possibility of define a parametrized nno in the context of a cartesian category (CC) with a simple nno. In which cases can it be done in the context of a CC? Could it be done only with numerals or (in the more general case of a) strong nno?

Ximo.

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    $\begingroup$ It would be easier to answer this question if you could give the definitions of "simple nno", "parametrized nno", "strong nno," and "numerals", so people wouldn't have to hunt down the book in question. Also, do you mean "define" (i.e. define the notion of, without it necessarily existing) or "construct"? $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 18, 2010 at 15:13
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    $\begingroup$ I agree with Mike Shulman. While it seems to have been established recently that there is no obligation for a questioner on MO to include background material in order to make the question more self-contained, doing so certainly widens the audience and can only make the question more likely to be answered. In this case, I take the lack of response to be an indication that the MO regulars are not fluent in the language of "nno"'s. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 18, 2010 at 19:08
  • $\begingroup$ Ok. Agree. I need more familiarity with the typing diagrams techniques. Thank you for the suggestion. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 18, 2010 at 19:20
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    $\begingroup$ It's probably not necessary to show all the diagrams. I think it's reasonable to assume that the people who would be interested in answering this question (such as me) know what an ordinary NNO is, or can look it up, since that is a fairly standard notion, e.g. ncatlab.org/nlab/show/natural+numbers+object . But some brief remarks about how Lambek and Scott are using the adjectives "simple," "parametrized," and "strong" might be helpful for people without access to that particular book. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 19, 2010 at 2:17

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I give two examples of categories with finite products and simple NNO. In the first example the simple NNO is also a parameterized NNO, while in the second example it is not. Although it is difficult to understand your question, I believe the examples should clarify matters.

First, consider the category $\mathcal{C}$ whose objects are the finite powers of $\mathbb{N}$, namely $\mathbb{N}^0$, $\mathbb{N}^1$, $\mathbb{N}^2$, ... and morphisms are set-theoretic functions $f : \mathbb{N}^k \to \mathbb{N}^m$. This category clearly has finite products, is not cartesian-closed because there are too many morhisms $\mathbb{N} \to \mathbb{N}$, and it has a parameterized NNO, namely the obvious one.

[Updated 2022-12-07] Following Sridhar Ramesh's suggestion, we describe a category $\mathcal{D}$ which has a simple NNO but not a parameterized one. Say that a map $f : \mathbb{N}^k \to \mathbb{N}^m$ is good when for every projection $\pi_k : \mathbb{N}^m \to \mathbb{N}$ there is $f' : \mathbb{N} \to \mathbb{N}$ such that $\pi_k \circ f = f' \circ \pi_k$.

Now take as the objects of $\mathcal{D}$ powers $\mathbb{N}^0, \mathbb{N}^1, \mathbb{N}^2, \ldots$ and the morphisms are the good maps. Identity maps are obviously good because $\pi_k \circ \mathrm{id} = \mathrm{id} \circ \pi_k$. To see that the composition of good maps $f : \mathbb{N}^k \to \mathbb{N}^m$ and $g : \mathbb{N}^m \to \mathbb{N}^n$ is good, observe that $\pi_k \circ g = g' \circ \pi_k$ and $\pi_k \circ f = f' \circ \pi_k$ together apply $\pi_k \circ (h \circ f) = h' \circ \pi_k \circ f = (h' \circ f') \circ \pi_k$.

The category $\mathcal{D}$ has finite products, since projections are good, and so is the pairing of good maps.

The category $\mathcal{D}$ has a simple NNO, namely the obvious one, because the morphisms $\mathbb{N} \to \mathbb{N}$ are all set-theoretic maps. But it cannot have a parameterized NNO, for if it did, we could construct addition ${+} : \mathbb{N}^2 \to \mathbb{N}$ as a morphism in the category.

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  • $\begingroup$ I don't follow in the second example why these are closed under composition. Do we not have, for example, $\langle a, b \rangle \mapsto \langle a + b, a + b \rangle : \mathbb{N}^2 \to \mathbb{N}^2$ by clause 1, and $\langle c, d \rangle \mapsto c : \mathbb{N}^2 \to \mathbb{N}$ by clause 3? But composing these, we get $\langle a, b \rangle \mapsto a + b : \mathbb{N}^2 \to \mathbb{N}$, which is forbidden. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 0:59
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, 12 years after writing the answer, I am wondering about it myself. Do we know how to fix it, though? $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 13:13
  • $\begingroup$ I think I fixed it, please double-check. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 13:21
  • $\begingroup$ Surely with a simple NNO, we should be able to define the doubling map from N to N (replacing successor by its square)? I suspect you meant to allow maps from N^m to N^n such that following these with any projection yields either a constant map or a map equivalent to a projection followed by an endofunction of N? $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 6, 2022 at 17:57
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    $\begingroup$ Third is the charm. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 7, 2022 at 19:02
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If I understand correctly, by a parametrized nno in a category $C$ you mean a nno $N$ which is stable under pullbacks: $N \times X$ is a nno in the slice $C/X$ for every object $X$ of $C$. The reason why a nno in a cartesian closed category is automatically a parametrized nno is that any functor with a right adjoint will preserve nnos. Cartesian closedness is precisely equivalent to saying that the pullback functor $C \to C/X$ has a right adjoint.

Sometimes (e.g. in a topos) nnos can be characterized by the two axioms

  • $1 \xrightarrow{z} N \xleftarrow{s} N$ is a coproduct diagram, and

  • the coequalizer of $N\xrightarrow{s} N$ and the identity on $N$ is the terminal object $1$.

These correspond more closely to the Peano axioms rather than primitive recursion. In such cases, a right exact functor between such categories will preserve nnos. This may help you relax the cartesian closedness condition a little (though, obviously, not in the case of topoi).

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  • $\begingroup$ I don't understand very well: right exact functors between which categories? And..what you mean by relax cartesian closedness? With or without exponential objects? Thanks. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 20, 2010 at 13:53
  • $\begingroup$ Exponential objects would make the category cartesian closed, so every nno is parametrized by the first paragraph. I thought you wanted to generalize to cartesian categories which are not necessarily closed, did I misunderstand? $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 20, 2010 at 14:31
  • $\begingroup$ Ah! I forgot to mention that the functors should preserve 1 (which is true for the relevant functors $(-)\times X:C \to C/X$). $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 20, 2010 at 14:34
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, what you said about that slice functor was proved by Burroni over a topos. What I want is to know what kind of categories convert simple into parametrized nno not being CCC but only CC as Lambek and Scott suggest. Thanks again. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 20, 2010 at 16:53
  • $\begingroup$ Your question is still unclear. It is not true that a nno in a cartesian category is necessarily a parametrized nno. Presumably, the Lambek and Scott remark does not say that, but you haven't given a specific enough reference. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 22, 2010 at 20:12
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So, here are some definitions about Natural Numbers Object (nno), that is a key concept in category theory related to Computer Science. They are given in Lambek and Scott (LS) in the following form:

  1. A (simple) nno is a group of three (N,z,s) where N is an object and z (as zero) and s (as successor) morphisms in a category and the diagram $1\overset{z}{\longrightarrow}N\overset{s}{\longrightarrow}N$ is initial among all the diagrams in the form $1\overset{f}{\longrightarrow}Y\overset{g}{\longrightarrow}Y$
  2. A parametrized nno is a group of three as the one above where the diagram $X\overset{(z,1_X)}{\longrightarrow}N \times X\overset{s \times 1_X}{\longrightarrow}N \times X$ is initial among all the diagrams in the form $X\overset{f}{\longrightarrow}Y\overset{g}{\longrightarrow}Y$

Barr and Wells propose to say the latter simply a nno because is the only of our interest. It is closely related to a descrption of the primitive recursive functions. A nno makes an object of a category behave as the natural numbers.

With all of these my questions are: while LS demonstrate the existence of a parametrized nno when we are in a cartesian closed category (CCC) with a (simple) nno...in which cases can it be done in the context of a CC (not closed)? Could it be done only with numerals in the sense of arrows $1\longrightarrow N^{k}$ standard (built up in terms of z and s morphisms)?

To ask about weak and strong nno's I would need more definitions, so I let it here for the moment. Thank you in advance and sorry for my english.

Ximo.

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  • $\begingroup$ Does the distinction between strong/weak nnos match the distinction between strong/weak initial objects? $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 19, 2010 at 17:02
  • $\begingroup$ Unfortunately, after all that, I have to say that I don't know the answer. I doubt it, but I don't have a counterexample offhand. $\endgroup$ Commented Jan 20, 2010 at 5:39
  • $\begingroup$ In the definition of parameterized NNO I would expect $g : Y \times X \to Y$. Are you sure you got it right? $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 29, 2010 at 13:44
  • $\begingroup$ Mh...no, otherwise you had an extra variable with no sense. Am I correct? $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 29, 2010 at 14:05
  • $\begingroup$ Well, then of course you have to also change the diagrams accordingly. Anyhow, just think about how primitive recursion with parameters works. Also, I think parametrized NNO can be expressed in terms of it being a simple NNO in all slices. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 29, 2010 at 14:32

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