# Where do nonstandard elliptic curve angles come from?

This is a question which has bounced around my head over the past few years. At the same time, I am answering Riemann hypothesis for zeta function of algebraic curves over fields of infinite characteristic. with another question.

Let $$E$$ be an elliptic curve over $$Q$$. Let $$u$$ be an nonprincipal ultrafilter on the set of prime numbers.

For each prime $$p$$ (at which $$E$$ has good reduction, let's say), let $$\pm \theta_p$$ be the elliptic curve angle at $$p$$. In other words, $$a_p = 2 \sqrt{p} \cdot \cos(\theta_p)$$. Then, by the compactness of the interval $$[-1,1]$$, there is a nonstandard elliptic curve angle $$\theta_u$$ naturally associated to the set $$(\theta_p)$$ and $$u$$.

I've been wondering if there's any other way to produce these nonstandard angles. For example, let $$\sigma$$ be a "generic" field automorphism of the complex numbers $$C$$, in the sense that $$(C,\sigma)$$ is a model of ACFA. Can one produce an elliptic curve angle $$\theta$$ directly from the data $$(E, C, \sigma)$$?

What's so difficult here is that, in the transfer from characteristic $$p$$ to characteristic $$0$$, it is so difficult to figure out how to handle things like $$\sqrt{p}$$. The only hope, that I can see, would be to think of $$a_p$$ as a $$p$$-adic number (use $$p$$-adic cohomology), and then transfer the result to a Laurent series field (so $$a_u$$ might belong to $$C((\varpi))$$ and $$a_u / \sqrt{\varpi}$$ would be well-behaved). But this is all "pie in the sky" for now.

Any ideas? Anyone thought about RH in models of ACFA?

It is a consequence of the generalized Sato–Tate conjecture, that given a non-CM elliptic curve over $$\mathbb Q$$, any element of $$\operatorname{Gal}(\bar{\mathbb Q}/\mathbb Q)$$, and a real number $$\in[−1,1]$$, one can construct an ultrafilter on the primes such that Frobenius converges to that element and the angle of Frobenius converges to that real number.
• I'm pretty sure that what you described as "cos of some real number" is exactly what I would call $\cos(\theta_u)$ in my question. It's just a question of when you want to make the transition from nonstandard back to standard. I agree that the Tate module approach won't work... generic automorphisms of $\bar Q$ won't act nicely. I would be more hopeful about a purely $p$-adic approach, like Monsky-Washnitzer cohomology but with $p$-adic numbers replaced by Laurent series over ultra-finite fields. Commented Aug 10, 2012 at 22:41
• Just to sound the death knell: It seems clear, although Sato-Tate-type theorems might not actually be strong enough currently, that given an elliptic curve, any element of $Gal(\bar{\mathbb Q}/Q)$, and a real number $[-1,1]$, one can construct an ultrafilter on the primes such that Frobenius converges to that element and the angle of Frobenius converges to that real number. Commented Aug 11, 2012 at 21:33
• My claim implies that you cannot determine $\cos(\theta_u)$ number using just the elliptic curve and an automorphism of $\bar{\mathbb Q}$. Thus you must somehow take advantage of the action on the larger field, which I have no idea how to do. Commented Aug 19, 2012 at 4:03