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This posting is related to the answer to this question.

Lets extend the language of $\sf PA$ with a monadic symbol "$\vdash$", add to the formula formation rules, the rule:

  • if $(\phi)$ is a formula, then $(\vdash \phi)$ is a formula.

Now add all of the usual axioms of $\sf PA$ with induction restricted to the language of $\sf PA$, i.e. doesn't use the symbol "$\vdash$".

Add the following axioms:

Axioms: if $A$ is an axiom of $\sf PA$, then: $$ \vdash A$$

Modus Ponens: Let $A;B$ be sentences in the language of $\sf PA$, then: $$ (\vdash A) \land (\vdash (A \to B)) \to (\vdash B)$$

Now, define the notion of strong provability as:

$S$ is strongly provable in $\sf PA$ if and only if there is a Gödel code of its proof in $\sf PA$ that is strictly smaller than any Gödel code of a proof of its negation in $\sf PA$

Formally:

$ S \text { is strongly provable in } {\sf PA} \iff \\ \exists x: \operatorname {Proof}_{\sf PA} (x, \ulcorner S \urcorner ) \land \\ \forall y (\operatorname {Proof}_{\sf PA} (y, \operatorname {neg}(\ulcorner S \urcorner)) \to x < y ) $

To explain the terminology: those are the same as the Gödel-Rosser terminology (see here). Notice here that the whole of the above sentence is written in the pure language of $\sf PA$, in particular it doesn't use the symbol "$\vdash$" whatsoever.

Question:

Assuming $\sf PA$ is consistent, is the following a theorem scheme of this theory?

  • if $S$ is a sentence in the language of $\sf PA$, then: $$ (S \text{ is strongly provable in } {\sf PA}) \to (\vdash S)$$

I personally think it is not, since there are non-standard models of $\sf PA$. But, I'm not sure of whether the existence of such models would affect the truth of the above implication in this theory?

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    $\begingroup$ Nothing you've written prevents $\vdash S$ from holding for every $S$. So in fact we can have an expansion of the standard model of arithmetic in which your $\vdash$ doesn't coincide with $\mathsf{PA}$-provability. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 16, 2023 at 20:18
  • $\begingroup$ @NoahSchweber, yes you are right! I've changed the biconditional to an implication, which is actually the title of this question. So, here the question is about if we assume PA and this theory is consistent, would that implication be a theorem scheme of this theory? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 16, 2023 at 20:50

2 Answers 2

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Let me assume that you also include the axioms $\vdash A$ whenever $A$ is a logical axiom, for some fixed standard proof system using modus ponens as the only inference rule. And let me also assume that we have induction in the language including $\vdash$.

It now follows easily by induction on proofs in that system that whenever $S$ is provable in PA, then your theory proves $\vdash S$.

Indeed, since the induction on proofs can be undertaken internally to the theory, we get that your theory proves the universal claim $$\forall S, \text{ if }S\text{ is provable in PA, then }\vdash S.$$

And since strong provability implies provability, the answer is yes, every instance of your implication is provable in your theory. (But I find strong provability to be a red herring here.)

If you don't include the logical axioms in your theory, then it will break this argument, but furthermore it would be questionable whether your theory in that case was expressing a useful concept about provability.

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    $\begingroup$ Oh, I just noticed that you had said that you don't want induction in the language with $\vdash$. In this case, you can't undertake the induction-on-proofs argument internally. But you still do get every instance of the implication, if $S$ is provable, then your theory proves $\vdash S$. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 16, 2023 at 21:39
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    $\begingroup$ If your theory doesn't allow $\vdash$ into instances of the induction scheme, then we cannot perform the induction-on-proofs argument internally to show "if $S$ is provable in PA, then $\vdash S$", since that statement uses $\vdash$. But if we only want to prove this implication in the metatheory, we can use induction. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 16, 2023 at 21:48
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    $\begingroup$ I don't agree that your theory of $\vdash$ "captures" syntactic provability. It is a terrible theory of provability, missing basic things about provability---it doesn't express that whenever $\vdash \psi$ then there should be a proof; it doesn't have induction in the language with $\vdash$. Sure, it is compatible that it is interpreted in a model by metatheoretic provability, and this is how you used it in the previous comment, but we already knew that the provability/strong provability of a sentence in a model does not imply semantic provability; your theory has nothing to do with it. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 17, 2023 at 13:03
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    $\begingroup$ It is compatible with your theory that $\vdash A$ whenever $A$ is provable in some fixed theory stronger than PA, since nothing in your theory says that only PA are axioms. Indeed, I guess this is a characterization of your theory (provided that the logical axioms are always included, and not just PA as you stated). A special case of this occurs when this extension theory is inconsistent, in which case $\vdash A$ is always true. But actually, since you didn't include the logical axioms, I believe that not all models of your theory have $\vdash A$ for every provable $A$. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 17, 2023 at 13:11
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    $\begingroup$ In this sense, your theory underspecifies provability in several respects. It allows that $\vdash A$ is interpreted as provability in a much stronger theory than PA, but also allows that it is interpreted in a much weaker incomplete proof system without the logical axioms even. This is why I don't view it as "capturing" metatheoretic provability. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 17, 2023 at 13:31
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The negation of the Rosser sentence, that is $\neg \rho$, states that "the Rosser sentence $\rho$ is strongly provable in $\sf PA$". Now $\rho$ is not a theorem of $\sf PA$, neither is a theorem of this theory! (otherwise it will make this theory inconsistent for the same reasons it'll render $\sf PA$ inconsistent should it be a theorem of $\sf PA$)

So we can add $\neg \rho$ to the list of axioms of this theory, to get a consistent theory, call it $K$.

Now since $\neg \rho$ doesn't have the symbol $\vdash$ occurring in it, then all $(\vdash \phi)$ theorems of $K$ are those of the original theory, and precisely each $\phi$ must be a theorem of $\sf PA$.

Now $(\vdash \rho)$ is not a theorem of $K$, since $\rho$ is not a theorem of $\sf PA$. But $\neg \rho$ is a theorem of $K$, thus the implication is refuted in $K$ for the instance where $S$ is $\rho$.

Now, all models of $K$ are models of this theory, so this proves that the questioned implication scheme is NOT a theorem scheme of this theory, since it's not satisfied by all models of it.

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  • $\begingroup$ This argument is the same as what I had already pointed out on your other question. Namely, in a model where the Rosser sentence fails, $\rho$ is strongly provable inside the model, but still not provable in the metatheory. Since it is consistent with your theory to interpret your $\vdash$ as metatheoretic provability, this is the same as what you claim here. Note: your claim that "precisely each $\phi$ must be a theorem of PA" is not true—this is not a consequence of the theory—since it is also consistent with your theory that $\vdash\phi$ expresses provability in some fixed extension of PA. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 13:00
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, $(\vdash \phi)$ can indeed be extended to a higher provability concept, or even dropped to a lower one (like if we restrict Axioms scheme to a fragment of PA), but it won't be expressing the same concept of provability even though it has the same notation. I'm speaking about $\vdash \phi$ in this system (or in $K$), I'm specific here. So, in these systems we do have $\vdash \phi$ is a theorem of this theory (or of $K$) iff $\phi$ is a theorem of PA. Otherwise from where it would bring the extra $\phi$s'? The $\vdash$ system is starting from the axioms of PA and is moving by Modus Ponens? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 13:32
  • $\begingroup$ You haven't understood what I am saying, which is that K does not express that only PA are axioms for $\vdash$, but rather says merely that the PA axioms are amongst the $A$ for which $\vdash A$. Without chaning the the theory at all, there are models of it in which $\vdash A$ holds of all $A$, or of $A$ provable in some other fixed extension of PA. But I think I'll be finished interacting with the topic for now. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 13:50
  • $\begingroup$ Ok, thank very much for your interaction really. I know all of that. I'm not claiming that $\vdash \phi$ is consistent with this theory iff $\phi$ is a theorem of PA. I'm claiming that $(\vdash \phi)$ is a theorem of this theory iff $\phi$ is a theorem of PA. I'm speaking about the behavior of $\vdash$ that is common to ALL models of this theory and I think it parallels exactly the theorization in PA (i.e. provability that is common to all models of PA). I think this is provable by a sort of meta-theoretic induction, or something alike, but I'm not well versed in that. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 13:58

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