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From Wikipedia (I couldn't find the original source):

$\text{ZFC} + \{\text{there are $n$ Woodin cardinals: $n$ is a natural number}\}$ is conservative over $\text{Z}_2$ with projective determinacy.

(where projective determinacy is interpreted as a schema in the language of second order arithmetic).

How much determinacy do we actually need if we want to get up to ZFC level? Or more precisely, for which pointclasses $\mathbf{S}$ in the projective hierarchy is $\mathbf{\text{ZFC} + S\text{-determinacy}}$ conservative over $\mathbf{\text{Z}_2 + S\text{-determinacy}}$? (This is equivalent to saying that if a statement in the language of second order arithmetic is also a theorem of ZFC, it is a theorem of $\text{Z}_2 + S\text{-determinacy}$.)

$S$ is at least borel (since ZFC proves borel determinacy).

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  • $\begingroup$ IIRC, the Axiom of Choice is a bit of an issue here. The basic idea is that it's really hard to build anything better than countable-replacement from a system of second-order arithmetic, which makes it tricky to extend $L$ above $\omega_1$ to get an inner model of choice. Anyway, it's way easier to get consistency than conservativity! $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 15, 2023 at 1:46
  • $\begingroup$ @FrançoisG.Dorais do you know how much determinacy you need to prove ZFC consistent? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 15, 2023 at 2:18
  • $\begingroup$ No. I do not know. I'm assuming you're trying to prove something rather than looking for a fact. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 15, 2023 at 2:46

1 Answer 1

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Because ZFC proves soundness of $\text{Z}_2$, no consistent finite extension of $\text{Z}_2$ proves all second order arithmetic statements that are provable in ZFC (for example, the statement "the conjunction of the new axioms implies their own consistency with $\text{Z}_2$"). Moreover, for each fixed $n$, $Σ^1_n$ soundness can be expressed by a single sentence in $\text{Z}_2$, so infinite extensions with $Σ^1_n$ sentences (fixed $n$) would not work either. I suspect that $\text{Z}_2 + \mathbf{Σ^1_n}$ determinacy (fixed $n$) does not even prove the countable choice schema. It is only by using statements of unbounded quantifier alternation depth that we get the quoted conservation result.

With regard to consistency strength, $\text{Z}_2 + Σ^1_1-\text{Det}$ is at a least a strong as ZFC. Going further, over $\text{Z}_2$, $\mathbf{Σ^1_1}-\text{Det}$ (note the boldface) is equivalent to every real having a sharp.

I suspect that $\text{Z}_2 ⊢ Σ^1_1-\text{Det} ⇔ 0^\#$. Now, $\text{Z}_2+ 0^\#$ proves $Σ^1_1-\text{Det}$ and $\operatorname{Con}(\text{ZFC} + ∀α < ω_1 \, α-\text{Erdős cardinal})$. However, the current proof of $Σ^1_1-\text{Det} ⇒ 0^\#$ does not work in $\text{Z}_2$. That proof yields a real $x$ such that every $x$-admissible ordinal is an $L$-cardinal, which makes $ω_1$ inaccessible in $L$. However, getting $0^\#$ from such an $x$ requires going beyond $\text{Z}_2$ (and even third order arithmetic), and over $\text{Z}_2$ such an $x$ is merely equiconsistent with ZFC (see Harrington's principle over higher order arithmetic by Cheng and Schindler). For $\mathbf{Σ^1_1}-\text{Det}$, we get ZFC in $L[r]$ for every real $r$, so we get the sharps.

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    $\begingroup$ "With regard to consistency strength, $\text{Z}_2 + Σ^1_1-\text{Det}$ is at a least a strong as ZFC (and $\mathbf{Σ^1_1}-\text{Det}$ is stronger)." Do you have a source or proof for this? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 17, 2023 at 15:44
  • $\begingroup$ @PyRulez I edited the answer with the details. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 17, 2023 at 21:25
  • $\begingroup$ How do you define sharps in second order arithmetic? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 3:16
  • $\begingroup$ $0^\#$ is (or encodes) the theory of Silver indiscernibles of $L$; a real number is $0^\#$ iff it satisfies certain basic axioms and for every countable $α$, the Skolem Hull (constructed from the real) using $α$ indiscernibles is well-founded. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 14:26

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