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Are there known statements in $V_{ω+ω}$ independent through forcing after $\mathrm{Col}(ω,<κ_1)*\mathrm{Col}(κ_1,<κ_2)*\mathrm{Col}(κ_2,<κ_3)*...$ where $κ_1<κ_2<κ_3<...$ are supercompact?
If no, what if we start with $\mathrm{Col}(ω_1,<κ_1)$ instead? If yes, can we get an independence in $V_{ω+2}$?

Notes:

  • Note that the forcing is an iteration rather than a product.
  • Extension: It is unclear how to best continue past $ω_ω$, but the simplest choice is to ignore singular cardinals, and collapse above the regular cardinals, using Easton support for the iteration.
  • Other collapses: There are other collapsing notions besides $\mathrm{Col}$, and I will accept an answer for the symmetric generic collapse (it is natural; not sure if it is equivalent here since after collapsing $κ_n$, the next step absorbs $\mathrm{Add}(κ_n,1)$).
  • Clarification: For this question, "independent through forcing" means that there is a generic extension $V[G]$ such that the truth depends on whether the collapse is performed in $V$ or in $V[G]$ (with $κ_1,κ_2,...$ still supercompact in $V[G]$, or using different supercompact cardinals). As supercompactness is not $Σ^V_2$, we allow class forcing with every set in $V[G]$ set-generic over $V$; or we could simply require $κ_1,κ_2,...$ to be supercompact up to the same inaccessible. Being consistently independent through forcing (with $V$ having enough supercompacts) also works for an answer. There is also the possibility that formally there are independent statements, but practically they are about as rare as arithmetical incompleteness of ZFC + supercompact.

Motivation

The set theoretical universe $V$ can be 'scrambled' by forcing. Large cardinal axioms offer symmetry, but mostly only at the scale of the large cardinals. Generic collapses can often unscramble the effects of forcing, perhaps giving us a precise approximation of the true $V$, and a natural canonical nonrestrictive theory of uncountable sets, without the pervasive incompleteness of ZFC.

The above iteration corresponds to first maximizing the reals up to a sufficiently closed and symmetric point, then proceeding with sets of reals, sets of sets of reals, and so on; and it is the simplest forcing implementing this maximization idea. After $\mathrm{Col}(ω,<\text{inaccessible})$, due to symmetry, $\mathrm{HOD}(ℝ)$ sets of reals are measurable, have Baire property, and perfect subset property. And $\mathrm{Col}(ω_n,<\text{inaccessible})$ gives certain symmetry properties for $\mathrm{OD}(\mathrm{Ord}^{ω_n})$ subsets of $P(ω_n)$.

I chose supercompactness as it is the level where the complexity of the large cardinal structure above $κ$ matches the complexity of $V$ above $κ$. A weak extender model for supercompactness must approximate $V$ (In search of Ultimate-L by Hugh Woodin). Moreover, there are indications (modulo iterability) that large cardinal axioms below supercompactness have canonical models with all reals $Δ^2_2$ in a countable ordinal, and presumably too weak to 'capture' third order arithmetic. Also, with just inaccessibles, I suspect the various square principles will be independent after the collapses even if supercompacts exist in $V$.

There are certain similarities between supercompactness and symmetry properties we want $ω_n$ to have; and consistency proofs of some forcing axioms (conjectured to be equiconsistent with supercompact) end up collapsing a supercompact to be $ω_2$. As for starting with $\mathrm{Col}(ω_1,<κ_1)$, the possibility is that large cardinal axioms themselves provide enough closure for countable sets, with natural forcing independences restricted to the uncountable.

It is also possible that some forcings leave traces that survive the generic collapses. A stationary subset of $κ_n$ will remain stationary in the extension due to $κ_n\text{-c.c}$ of the collapse through $κ_n$, and $κ_n$-closure of the remainder, but with the supercompactness, I do not know whether we can exploit this.

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  • $\begingroup$ Here’s a silly one, perhaps: “There is a transitive set of size $\omega_5$ in which $\omega_3$ is huge.” If you allow parameters, you can concoct things of the form, “There exists an $(M,P)$-generic filter,” for some particular $P$ and $M$, by preparing the ground model in a certain way and showing that the Levy collapses cannot alter this kind of statement. This probably isn’t what you’re interested in. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 22, 2021 at 20:45
  • $\begingroup$ @MonroeEskew I clarified the independence; a bit verbose, but I hope precise. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 22, 2021 at 23:25
  • $\begingroup$ If you start with a supercompact limit of supercompacts $\kappa$ and a supercompact $\lambda$ above it, then you can shoot a supercompact Prikry sequence which collapses $\lambda$ to be $\kappa^+$ and also changes $\kappa$ to have countable cofinality with a cofinal sequence of supercompact cardinals, then iterate the collapses. Of course, the question is how to proceed beyond $\omega^\omega$, or even beyond something like $\varepsilon_0$. I am guessing that Gitik's model may offer some idea, since it also had to contend with a similar issue of overlapping measures. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Feb 22, 2021 at 23:44
  • $\begingroup$ Also, what do you mean by "symmetric collapse"? (1) the symmetric collapse is a symmetric extension obtained by forcing with $\mathrm{Col}$; (2) when iterating collapses, one adds a well-ordering to the previous steps, so if you're using a full-support at singulars, you're adding a well-ordering, and you've got yourself choice. If you're using finite support, then you won't see the failure of AC inside $V_{\omega+\omega}$, and if you continue above it, you just won't see it, period. Also, there's no general framework for iterating symm. ext. with non-finite support. I'm working on it, though. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Feb 22, 2021 at 23:50
  • $\begingroup$ Oh, and you might want to take a look at the second part of my paper with David Asperó, "Dependent Choice, Properness, and Generic Absoluteness" (To appear in the RSL, but it's available online and on arXiv) where we discuss generic absoluteness for the Chang model from supercompact cardinals in ZF+DC (which you'd have if you do symmetric collapses). $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Feb 22, 2021 at 23:53

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