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If I understand correctly, Stephen Simpson, in his book Subsystems of Second Order Arithmetic, deems second-order arithmetic as a two-sorted first-order theory. If this is correct, then it seems reasonable to infer that one could use forcing to add generic sets of integers ('reals') and form models of $SOA$ that contain nonconstructible sets of integers--indeed, one could hypothetically form models of $SOA$ in which the sets of integers form a proper class. The purpose of such an exercise would be to study ordinary mathematics in such models for the purpose of studying what role nonconstructible sets would play in ordinary mathematics if mathematical practice advanced sufficiently to where such sets were 'needed'. I am wondering if there are any papers in the literature where such models of $SOA$ have been studied. Thanks in advance for any help given.

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  • $\begingroup$ I'm having some trouble understanding this question. 1) what does it mean for "sets of integers to form a proper class"? In SOA there is no notion of "proper class", and in ZFC, the subsets of some fixed set (the universe of the model) can't be a proper class, so there can be no model of SOA whose collection of sets are not bijective with a set. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 17:51
  • $\begingroup$ 2) Constructions that are essentially forcing already appears in Simpson's book, and a search for "forcing reverse mathematics" turns up many references, both to recursion-theoretic forcing (which may not be quite what you're asking for, since the sets are constructible) and to Steel forcing (which does use nonconstructible sets). It might help to explain whether, in particular, Steel forcing is or isn't the sort of thing you're asking about. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 17:56
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    $\begingroup$ @HenryTowsner My guess as to what "sets of integers form a proper class" might mean is that the OP wants a model that is not a set (in the metatheory) but a proper class. Another way to think of that would be to start with an inaccessible cardinal $\kappa$ (again in the metatheory), force to adjoin $\kappa$ new reals (e.g., Cohen reals), and then retreat to a viewpoint where $V_\kappa$ is regarded as the whole set-theoretic universe. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:12

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Re: the sets of natural numbers forming a proper class, they always do in second-order arithmetic: there is no sort for sets of sets of numbers! So there's no distinction between collections of sets of naturals which are sets, and collections of sets of naturals which aren't sets. All there is to a model of $RCA_0$ is: the natural numbers, and the sets of natural numbers.

Forcing does indeed work in second-order arithmetic. The idea is to expand the second-order part of a model $(N, S)\models RCA_0$; e.g., beginning with $M=(\omega, REC)$ (standard naturals, and recursive sets only), we can force to add (say) a Cohen-generic real $G$; the resulting model is $M[G]=(\omega, REC[G])$, that is, standard naturals and reals Turing below $G$.

Usually in second-order arithmetic we're more interested in iterated forcing: e.g. to build a model of $WKL_0+\neg ACA_0$, we iterate Jockusch-Soare forcing (from the Low Basis Theorem) over REC. There are exceptions, however: e.g. in Steel forcing, we perform a single forcing extension, and then look at a submodel of the result (Steel's original paper is quite readable) - similar to, but not the same as, a symmetric submodel. Basically, the full Steel extension is $M[G]$, and breaks into "layers" $M[G]_\alpha$ for $\alpha\in \omega_1^{CK}\cup\{\infty\}$; the model $M'$ we want is $\bigcup_{\alpha\in\omega_1^{CK}} M[G]_\alpha$, that is, the "ranked" part of $M[G]$.

The following description I think will be helpful to you: suppose I have a model $M=(\omega, S)$ of $RCA_0$, with standard natural numbers. This model $M$ lives in a universe $V$ of set theory. I'll force over $V$ with some poset $\mathbb{P}$ to get a generic object $G$; then, having fixed some names for reals $\nu_i$ ($i\in I$) in advance, I'll look at the structure $$M'=(\omega, \{r: \exists a_1, . . . , a_n\in S, i_1, . . . , i_m\in I(r\le_T a_1\oplus...\oplus a_n\oplus \nu_{i_1}[G]\oplus . . . \oplus\nu_{i_m}[G])\}),$$ that is, every real you can compute from things in $S$ together with things named by $\nu_i$s. This picture works less well for forcing over nonstandard models (although with some effort it can still be useful), but over standard models it clarifies things a lot. It's especially useful in contexts where the forcing you're performing isn't adequately coded by a single real: e.g. Steel forcing, Hechler forcing, etc. In these forcings, a name for a real is not, on the face of it, coded by a real, and so defining the generic extension can get a bit messy.

You mention examining the role of nonconstructible sets in mathematical practice. This seems like a job for ZFC as a base theory, instead; I don't really see how second-order arithmetic is the right context for this.

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  • $\begingroup$ Very helpful, thanks. Could you supply the reference and a link to the Steel paper? That would also be very helpful. Also, could you expand upon your notion of examining the role of nonconstructible sets in mathematical practice of ordinary mathematics as a job for $ZFC$ as a base theory? That would be helpful to me as well (my concern is that the strength of $ZFC$ is not necessary for ordinary mathematics--see Simpson's paper "The Goedel Hierarchy and Reverse mathematics". That is why I asked the question). $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 5:27
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    $\begingroup$ @ThomasBenjamin Steel's paper can be found here; also useful is section 2 of Montalban's paper. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 5:33
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    $\begingroup$ My point about ZFC vs $RCA_0$ is that constructibility isn't very well-developed over $RCA_0$: basic facts about $L$ (or rather, $L\cap 2^\omega$) can't be proved without using much more than $RCA_0$. So "constructibility," in the context of $RCA_0$ alone, doesn't quite mean what it should. Now, $ATR_0$ as a base theory could work - see section VII.4 of Simpson's book "Subsystems of second-order arithmetic" - so you could use that. But honestly, ZFC's probably a good place to start; it will be easier to analyze, and doesn't trivialize things already. (cont'd) $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 5:37
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    $\begingroup$ Let me push back on the idea that a weaker base theory is always better. First, while a weaker base theory always yields more meaningful implications, a stronger base theory yields more meaningful separations: if you want to show that P and Q are "really" different, separate them over a really powerful theory! Second, and more importantly, base theories capture ideas - you'll hear frequently claims that $RCA_0$ = "computable" and $ATR_0$ = "predicative," and even though I don't have such snappy slogans for Zermelo set theory, ZFC, and similar, they have distinct "flavors." (cont'd) $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 5:39
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    $\begingroup$ I think in general, a mathematical concept should be studied against the backdrop(s) most suited to it; in the context of reverse mathematics, I mean that there's no "ideal" base theory. More set-theoretic notions, like constructibility, suggest more set-theoretic base theories, like ZFC. And, pragmatically, I think it will be easier to begin by looking at the ZFC case, and if you then want to push it down to $ATR_0$, to do so later. (And beware that pushing it below $ATR_0$ will become dubious, since some of the facts which motivate the idea of constructibility won't be provable!) $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 5:40

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