9
$\begingroup$

$\newcommand{\Vect}{\mathit{Vect}}$I am reading Mochizuki's INTER-UNIVERSAL TEICHMÜLLER THEORY I to III and I hardly understand this theory, but there is a thing particularly I bother. Given an initial $\Theta$-data, consider $\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}$ Hodge theaters $\mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}$ defined in IUtchI Definition 6.13(2) and a poly isomorphism $\Xi$ between them (i.e. a set of isomorphisms between two $\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}$ Hodge theaters). Following this, let $\{{}^{m} \mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}\}_m$ be an infinite sequence depicted as follows (actually this is a part of a log-theta lattice though, I simplify by thinking only column): \begin{array}{rrcl} \cdots \xrightarrow{\Xi} {}^{-1}\mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}\ \xrightarrow{\Xi} {}^{0} \mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}\ \xrightarrow{\Xi} {}^{1}\mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}\ \xrightarrow{\Xi} \cdots \end{array} In IUtchIII Proposition 3.10, he introduces ${}^{\circ} \mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}$ for the $\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}$ Hodge theater determined up to isomorphism. It seems that this isomorphism is $\Xi$ according to the context, but however, as far as I know, an object determined up to isomorphism should represent the isomorphic class. That is, since isomorphism is an equivalence relation it is supposed to mean the equivalence class by regarding the isomorphism as an equivalence relation. Especially since such isomorphism is a relation, it must be a subset of $\mathrm{source} \times \mathit{target}$ of the isomorphism, but $\Xi$ is clearly not because it is a set of isomorphisms. Therefore I feel ${}^{\circ} \mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}$ can't be defined and Proposition 3.10 does not make sense. Is this a mistake that is based on a lack of my comprehension? If you could answer me, I would be very happy. Thanks in advance.

EDIT : I am sorry I didn't explain it clearly enough. Please let me explain my thinking by using a toy model of vector spaces, from a set-theoretic foundationalistic perspective. (To highlight this view, I add some links to pages having set theoretic definitions.) Defining an isomorphism class, as is usually done, should mean the following manipulation: Let $\Vect$ be the set of all vector spaces (of course this is the proper class though, I'll leave the details out.) we define the sets $\sim$ as $\{ (V_1, V_2): V_1 \cong V_2\}$. Trivially since $\sim \subset \Vect \times \Vect$ this is the (binary) relation on $\Vect$ (here I adopted the set-theoretic definition as there is in the link), and also, equivalence relation as well (one can prove this by using properties of isomorphism.) Therefore, one can define the isomorphism class of a vector space $V$ by $\sim$ as $[V]:= \{V' \in \Vect: V' \sim V \}$. On the other hand, however, if we replace $\sim$ with a poly isomorphism $\Xi$, then how can we define an isomorphism class? The first thing we need to do is, to define a relation $\{ (V_1, V_2): \phi(V_1, V_2) \}$. That is, we need to find a formula $\phi(V_1, V_2)$ using the set of isomorphisms $\Xi$. It seems to me that this is not obvious. For example, if we consider $\phi(V_1, V_2)$ as "$|\Xi| > 0$", then this is (from the definition of isomorphy between two objects) the same as the above relation so meaningless. Hence, the definition of an isomorphism class (in other words an object determined up to isomorphism) using $\Xi$ does not make sense (I think this cannot be solved even if one shifts the mathematical foundation from ZFC to another one.) I think Mochizuki's definition of ${}^{\circ} \mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}$ is under the same circumstance. Are there any mistakes in my thinking? If so, I would appreciate it if you could tell me.

$\endgroup$
32
  • 4
    $\begingroup$ You don't need to go to such details. The actual encoding of functions in any foundation should have no impact on mathematics outside of actual foundational questions, like "is this function definable in an axiom system with such-and-such restricted quantifier complexity?" and the such like. So questions that involve thinking of isomorphisms as subsets of the cartesian product are not useful to try to unpack what is being claimed, here. $\endgroup$
    – David Roberts
    Commented Jun 27, 2023 at 9:49
  • 4
    $\begingroup$ OK. It's just that it seems like some of the confusions are coming from ideas that are much more preliminary that the complicated mess that Mochizuki built. You really shouldn't need to try to formally define as a set or class, in some chosen foundation, what you mean by the equivalence relation that defines equivalence classes. It would be like doing number theory research, and specifying how integers multiply by talking about the multiplication table as done in school maths. It's now how the matter proceeds. I'm not sure what to advise you here apart from that IUT might not be worth it? $\endgroup$
    – David Roberts
    Commented Jul 1, 2023 at 2:35
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ In particular, Mochizuki has acknowledged that a lot of the stuff in his IUT papers is needlessly general, and other people who have tried to make sense of it, for instance Taylor Dupuy, managed to write down bits of hypothetical mathematics that use standard mathematical definitions and objects, and very little trace of all the increasingly novel and baroque constructions of Mochizuki, while possibly and apparently capturing what was intended. If we knew for sure, we wouldn't “... have the ridiculous situation where ABC is a theorem in Kyoto but a conjecture everywhere else”—Frank Calegari. $\endgroup$
    – David Roberts
    Commented Jul 1, 2023 at 2:39
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ No one in number theory or commutative algebra worries what set underlies the ring $R[X]$ any more than they worry what underlying set the natural numbers have. There's a famous paper "What numbers could not be" jstor.org/stable/2183530 that pushes back against the idea that numbers "are" sets. Before set theory, people did lots of amazing mathematics, and even today, most people don't even think much about set theory. It's like worrying about the underlying machine code CPU-level algorithm when trying to write a CSS style sheet. $\endgroup$
    – David Roberts
    Commented Jul 1, 2023 at 3:06
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ And mathematics can be entirely founded in type theory (not HoTT, even simpler than that), and there's not a set in sight, and everything is just syntax. $\endgroup$
    – David Roberts
    Commented Jul 1, 2023 at 3:07

1 Answer 1

3
$\begingroup$

Let me triage my questions. I think Dr. David Roberts and me agree Mochizuki's definition is not rigorous. The point being disagreed with is how math papers having non-strict arguments should be treated. As far as I understand, I will try to explain about this in the following paragraph, and for people who would like to know this paper's situation from set theoretic foundationalism, in the next paragraph of it.

I thought mathematicians have their foundation of mathematics, and some is ZFC and others is dependent type theory, but practically this is not the case, even Grothendieck; the thing is, there are mathematicians not having any foundations. As Dr. Kevin Buzzard said in this blog post or Chapter 6 of his recent paper on arXiv, Grothendieck's use of equality, Grothendieck sees $R[1/f]$ and $R[1/g]$ are the same when satisfying the condition that a prime ideal contains $f$ iff it contains $g$. Of course, although there is the unique $R$-algebra isomorphism, there is a non-small gap in proofs due to its set-theoretic non-equality.(For details, you can read it.) Although I understand how to think that any foundations are not essence, but mathematician's intuitions are, but in my opinion, non-rigorous arguments in math papers should be pointed out, such as Dick Gross's paper in 1990. Especially in recent rise of theorem provers like Lean (is based on dependent type theory not ZFC though, even so) mistakes from formalism can be more easily discovered. I think this is not troublesome; but also chance to improve mathematicians' paper quick. I think the reviewers would ought to comment about non-strictness, and it would be better that authors tackle formalization.

Let me change the subject. For those would like to know what in Mochizuki's definition doesn't go well from set theory more deeply, I'll try it. Normally, one starts from a meta theory and first-order logic it has. By using the logic, we can have the language $<\in>$ and the ZFC axioms, and using the axioms, develop mathematics, or proofs. However, in math, there are many symbols like $0$, not included in the language. This is justified by the extension by definition; concisely, $\emptyset$ which should be equal to $0$, is checked that it uniquely exists as sets. Then we can add $0$ to the language, and so it becomes $<\in, 0>$. On the other hand, if we have an object which is unique up to isomorphism, then can we define it? The answer is no, at least straightforward since 'isomorphic' doesn't necessarily mean 'equal' as sets, so it may be not unique. However, 'up to', as the link says, means the equivalence class is unique as sets, so we can define it as using the class without any stumbling blocks. Therefore, this uncovers that Mochizuki's definition have a problem: we don't know about 'up to poly-isomorphism' as I said in the edit, and we can't define ${}^{\circ} \mathcal{HT}^{\mathcal{D}\text{-}\Theta^{\pm \mathscr{ell}}}$.

People who have a different philosophical position as me, may think this is the problem of ZFC, not Mochizuki's definition, but this will be my answer to my question. If I have any mistakes, then I apologize for it.

$\endgroup$
2
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ I think - if you're going to adopt this particularly-detail-oriented stance - that the real question is whether Mochizuki's definition is meaningfully more ambiguous than ones common throughout algebraic geometry; otherwise, it's odd to single out this particular notion. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 19 at 4:28
  • $\begingroup$ It's the difference of philosophical positions; I think if set theoretic gaps or other basis' ones exist in a proof of algebraic or arithmetic geometry except for IUTT, then the proof is also not reached completion. So I am excited to a project that FLT's proofs are rewritten by using Lean and gaps of the proofs are under the light. But of course it is good for maths for mathematicians to research, assuming it can be proved. Having said that, as I have written recently in the question's comment, I feel IUTT's ambiguity is more than other major proofs of algebraic and arithmetic geometry. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 30 at 4:37

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .