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A set $X$ is transitive if $x\in y\in X\implies x\in X$. We shall say $\mathsf{TC}$ to mean the axiom "For all $X$ there is transitive $Y$ such that $|X|=|Y|$", where $|X|=|Y|$ means that there is a bijection $X\to Y$. I am interested in how much choice we obtain by assuming $\mathsf{TC}$.

Question. Does $\mathsf{TC}$ imply any classical choice principles? E.g. $\mathsf{AC}_X(Y)$, $\mathsf{DC}_\lambda$, comparability principles, etc.

Assuming the Axiom of Choice, $\mathsf{TC}$ holds because every set is in bijection with an ordinal. On the other hand, $\mathsf{TC}$ implies that every infinite set surjects onto $\omega$ (if $X$ is transitive and infinite then the rank function will have infinite image), so $\mathsf{TC}$ is not a consequence of $\mathsf{ZF}$.

My guess would be that $\mathsf{TC}$ has a stronger interaction with Hartogs and Lindenbaum numbers than just $(\forall X)\aleph^\ast(X)\neq\aleph_0$. Maybe $\mathsf{TC}$, or perhaps $\mathsf{TC}+\mathsf{KWP}_1$, could imply full $\mathsf{AC}_\mathsf{WO}$.

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    $\begingroup$ That's a nice question! $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Oct 2 at 9:43

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Here is one instance, although not with a "classical" choice principle.

Namely, your principle TC implies the rigid relation principle RR, a weak choice principle introduced by Justin Palumbo and myself in this paper:

The rigid relation principle is the assertion that every set admits a rigid binary relation. This is true under TC, since $\langle X,\in\rangle$ is rigid whenever $X$ is a transitive set, and so every set that is bijective with a transitive set admits a rigid binary relation.

Meanwhile, Justin and I proved that RR is strictly intermediate between ZF and ZFC.

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  • $\begingroup$ Sure, but AC implies RR as well... $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Oct 2 at 12:28
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    $\begingroup$ It provides a lower bound, as requested. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 12:31
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    $\begingroup$ Nice answer -- +1. Do you know whether your lower bound improves on the one in the question? In other words, do you know whether it is consistent that RR fails, but still every set surjects onto $\omega$? $\endgroup$
    – Will Brian
    Commented Oct 2 at 13:04
  • $\begingroup$ I'm not sure about that. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 13:21
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    $\begingroup$ To my way of thinking, TC is similar in spirit to RR---it is a natural strengthening of RR. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 15:21
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You can say a bit more than just every infinite set surjects onto $\omega$. Every infinite set is Dedekind infinite.

The reason is simple. If $T$ is an infinite transitive set, then $T\cap V_\omega$ is an infinite transitive set, and it is countable. To see this, note that if $T\cap V_\omega$ is finite, then, since $T$ is infinite, there is a gap in the finite ranks, but this is impossible as the rank function on a transitive set has a downwards closed image (i.e., its image is an ordinal).

This can probably be lifted to get slightly more out of this argument, but the "inspect locally, conclude globally" is bound to fail here. If every infinite set of reals is Dedekind-infinite, then every set of reals is equipotent to a transitive set. Simply consider the reals as $V_{\omega+1}$ and then every infinite set $T\subseteq V_{\omega+1}$ is equipotent with $T\cup V_\omega$, which is transitive. Equally, use $\mathcal P(\omega)$ and take $T\cup\omega$.

But, remember that we can have sets of reals which are very eccentric, in the technical sense, while still being Dedekind-infinite. So there is no reason to expect that the above argument can be used for anything significantly stronger.


Here's a nice thing to ponder about while walking in a park.

Assume $\sf KWP_1$ and for a set $x$ let $\kappa_x$ be the least such that $x$ maps into $\mathcal P(\kappa_x)$. Assume the following holds: $\kappa_x<\aleph(x)$ for all $x$. Then $\sf TC$ holds.

To see that, simply replace $x$ with a copy in $\mathcal P(\kappa_x)$, and since $\kappa_x+x=x$, as it is Dedekind-infinite, we can assume that said copy also contains $\kappa_x$ itself.

So, firstly, this seems to be flexible enough to extend to $\sf KWP_\alpha$, with some obvious caveats that we need to have more conditions on how the copy behaves with respect to adding subsets of a lower Kinna–Wagner rank. This might end up a bit too messy.

Secondly, is this consistent without choice at all? It seems likely, presumably if we violate choice on the reals in a way that preserves $\sf KWP_1$, this should work out. But I don't have a proof off the top of my head.

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    $\begingroup$ I had tried to come up with an argument for "every infinite set is Dedekind-infinite", but forgot that $V_\omega$ is countable. Nicely pointed out. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 3 at 10:50
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    $\begingroup$ @CalliopeRyan-Smith: I've added some stuff. $\endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Commented Oct 3 at 13:25
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After some thought the version of Löwenheim-Skolem used below appears to imply AC. So this upper bound is trivial.


An upper bound is the downward Löwenheim-Skolem Theorem plus every infinite set is Dedekind infinite.

Given an infinite set $X$. Let $\mathcal{L}_X$ be the language containing $=$, $\in$, and one constant symbol for each element of $X$. Let $M$ be the transitive closure of $X$ viewed as a $\mathcal{L}_X$ model where each constant is interpreted by the corresponding element of $X$. Since $|X| + \omega = |X|$, the downward Löwenheim-Skolem Theorem says that $M$ has an elementary submodel $N$ with $|N| \leq |X|$. We must actually have $|N| = |X|$ since the constants are distinct. Since $N \vDash$ extensionality, $N$ is isomorphic to its Mostowski collapse $T$. This $T$ is a transitive set with $|T| = |X|$.

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    $\begingroup$ Actually, I'm worried the version I'm using implies AC. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 18:05
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    $\begingroup$ Let $\mathcal{L}_X$ be the language containing $=$, a binary function $f$, and one constant symbol for each element of $X$. Let $M$ be $X^\omega$ with $f$ interpreted as "interleaving" two sequences $f(a,b) = (a_0,b_0,a_1,b_1,\dots)$ and each constant $c$ interpreted as the constant sequence $(c,c,c,c,\dots)$. There is an elementary submodel $N \prec M$ with $|N| = |X|$. $N \models f$ is a pairing function, so we have a pairing function on $X$, and so $|X \times X| = |X|$, which implies AC. $\endgroup$
    – paste bee
    Commented Oct 2 at 19:26
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    $\begingroup$ Let M be $\mathcal{P}^\omega(X)$, with the elements of $X$ as atoms (and otherwise the obvious interpretation of $\in$); now this has a pairing function (Kuratowski pairs) and the rest of the argument from there is the same. $\endgroup$
    – paste bee
    Commented Oct 2 at 19:53
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    $\begingroup$ I think you mean $V_\omega(X)$ (the union of the iterates of $\mathcal{P}(X)\cup X$) but yes, that works! $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 19:57
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    $\begingroup$ I'm keeping the answer here since I think the mistake is interesting in its own way and I want to preserve the knowledge I gained after doing it. I also think others may learn something useful from this post, no matter the ultimate outcome. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 22:55
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I had previously asked this question in relation to a definition of cardinality that I gave then as: The cardinality of a set $x$ is the set of all sets equinumerous with $x$ having all elements in their transitive closures being strictly subnumerous to $x$.

$\sf ZF$ proves that for every set $x$ there is a set $\overset x \nabla$ of all sets strictly subnumerous to $x$ having every element in their transitive closures being strictly subnumerous to $x$. But, it doesn't prove the existence of an injection from $x$ to $\overset x \nabla$ . But, with your $\sf TC$ principle clearly this works. But, I'm not sure if it is equivalent with it.

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  • $\begingroup$ So if I'm understanding correctly, $\overset x \nabla$ is a transitive set such that, for all $y\in \overset x \nabla$, $|y|<|x|$, and is in fact the (unique) maximal such set? What does $\overset x \nabla$ look like in ZFC, for example? $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 3 at 11:00
  • $\begingroup$ @CalliopeRyan-Smith, In $\sf ZFC$ every set is bijective to an ordinal. When $x$ is infinite, we simply start from the empty set then iterate $\mathcal P^{<|x|}$ operator (i.e., the set of all subsets of size strictly smaller than $|x|$) over it along all ordinal indices $<|x|$, and this would be $\overset x \nabla$. So, $\overset x \nabla$ would be a subset of $V_{|x|}$. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 3 at 15:01
  • $\begingroup$ @CalliopeRyan-Smith If what you stated is correct, then $\nabla x$ should be $H_{|x|}$ under $\mathsf{ZFC}$. $\endgroup$
    – Hanul Jeon
    Commented Oct 3 at 16:25
  • $\begingroup$ @HanulJeon, I understand that $H_\kappa$ is the set of all sets whose transitive closures are strictly subnumerous to $\kappa$. This breaks at finite $x$ for example $\overset 2 \nabla \neq H_2$, the first is infinite, while the latter is finite. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 3 at 17:39
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    $\begingroup$ The definition I follow is: $H_\kappa$ is the set of all $a$ such that $|\operatorname{TC}(a)|<\kappa$. (Its definition does not automatically guarantee $H_\kappa$ is a set, but you can see that $|\operatorname{TC}(a)|<\kappa$ implies the rank of $a$ is less than $\kappa$, so $H_\kappa\subseteq V_\kappa$.) And I do not think the word is 'subnumerous' is a usual terminology albeit it could be an outdated one. $\endgroup$
    – Hanul Jeon
    Commented Oct 3 at 22:52

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