7
$\begingroup$

What is exactly demanded for a set theoretic foundation of Category theory? I saw generally two main approaches. One is Muller's who did the work in Ackermann's set theory, but his criteria seem to hint at existence of a universe of $\sf ZFC$ and an $n$-iterative power over it for each natural $n$. It claims that this is all what Category theory needs to be founded in class\set theory. However, many approaches seems to demand having multiple set theoretic universes like Tarski-Grothendieck set theory. Some do it with few inaccessibles.

My question is that why not do all of that in the standard line of set theory using the Worldly cardinals instead.

So for Mullers approach we just need to work in $\sf ZC + \text { a worldly cardinal exists }$, and simply we define Muller's sets as those with ranks lower than the first worldly cardinal.

Now for the multiple universes approach we can also use the worldly cardinals, so we work in $\sf ZFC$ plus a countable sequence $V_{@_1},...,V_{@_w}$ of the first $\omega+1$ stages indexed with worldly cardinals. ["$@_i$" stands for the $i^{th}$ worldly cardinal]. I mean this way we can avoid the superabundancy objections, and also the insufficiency objection, besides we can have a clear cut definition of what the Category of sets is, and define higher Categories as well.

Is this approach possible? What are its pitfalls?

$\endgroup$
7
  • $\begingroup$ You are very right, I thought the power set was not absolute and that was the only argument for my objections, so I withdraw them and delete them. $\endgroup$
    – godelian
    Commented Jun 24, 2022 at 21:38
  • $\begingroup$ @godelian, I just wanted to mention that the worldly stages are not just transitive, they are supertransitive, so all subsets of elements of them are elements of them as well. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 25, 2022 at 6:57
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ As someone who’s read Mullers paper and enjoyed it, I’m not sure his ‘criteria for category theory’ should really be taken too seriously. He clearly has a good understanding of set theoretical foundations and has tried to ‘look at’ category theory from that perspective to ‘see what it needs foundationally’, but I didn’t get the impression that he’s ever actually done any real category theory and this prevents him from giving criteria that are really central to the working category theorist. That being said, the parts of his paper on set/class theory are very cool and interesting. $\endgroup$
    – Alec Rhea
    Commented Jun 25, 2022 at 21:08
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Although it does not discuss Muller's ideas specifically, the paper Set theory for category theory by Mike Shulman may interest you. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 13:24
  • $\begingroup$ @TimothyChow, I remember reading this paper. It is very interesting. It doesn't mention anything about using worldly cardinals. It appears to me that Muller's work is more critical. Not really sure. Thanks $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 14:41

2 Answers 2

5
$\begingroup$

The title asks:

Can Category theory be founded in set theory using worldly cardinals instead of inaccessibles?

The first line in the main body of the question is:

What is exactly demanded for a set theoretic foundation of Category theory?

These are two different questions. As I mentioned in a comment, for the latter question, I find Mike Shulman's article Set theory for category theory highly illuminating. In this answer, let me focus on Muller's paper.

Muller has some idiosyncratic philosophical concerns. He is deeply troubled by strong existence axioms.

The gigantic universe that Feferman creates with ZFCS, that Mac Lane creates with ZFCU, we created with CVN+ and Grothendieck with ZFCω, is so ridiculously large in comparison to what we actually need to found category-theory, that is unbelievable it has even been considered seriously.

He is under the impression (incorrect IMO) that the motivation for these existence axioms is the belief that they are necessary.

If these proposals are so exessively comprehensive as this author says they are, then why have they been seriously considered in the first place? The answer is simple: because it is generally held that if you want to found category-theory on a set-theory of sorts, then there is no other way but to throw in inaccessibles.

Muller also has what I consider to be an idiosyncratic view of what practicing category theorists need/want.

If the category-theoretician now suddenly wants to have some category of all classes ($\ne \boldsymbol{Cls}$), in the sense of ARC, then we have to kiss her goodbye, for there is no such thing available in ARC. There is however no reason to desire this, because $\boldsymbol{Set}$ and $\boldsymbol{Cls}$ are available as the categories with ‘the least structured objects’, i.e. plain sets or classes of sets as objects and plain functions as arrows.

If you share Muller's beliefs on all three counts, then you might find Muller's proposed solution congenial. However, I would challenge all three assumptions. First of all, inaccessibles or universes are invoked by practitioners primarily for convenience, not because they are believed to be indispensable. When practitioners sense set-theoretic paradoxes crouching at the door, they usually want the simplest possible amulet to ward them off, so that they can go back to thinking about what they really want to think about. Also, especially when it comes to higher category theory, they are often tempted by the thing that prompts Muller to kiss them goodbye—they've set up some framework with (say) two "levels" and they want to be able to invoke all the usual machinery to create a third "level," without having to revise everything they've previously written. Finally, if conservativity over ZFC is the issue, then Feferman's approach has already delivered that; the apparent "superabundancy" can be treated as merely une façon de parler.

To sum up, I would guess that there is nothing seriously wrong with Muller's proposal, but practitioners might find it less convenient than Grothendieck universes, and it's not clear what is really gained. For example, it has long been known that in any particular context where you really want to eliminate the use of universes, then there is no serious obstacle to doing so.

$\endgroup$
8
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, but why not do matters with less assumptions, I mean if worldly stages can do the job, then why not stick to them, why go to inaccessibles? Is there a specific gain from doing so? I mean the Category theoriest went to those universes because they model ZFC and the powers are absolute and so on.., but this is the same with worldly stages? So why use extra-material if the same gain is there, why for instance it is more convient to use the universes approach? You see the question repeats itself even at practicality spheres. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 19:43
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ Universes are convenient because you can just simply invoke another universe when you want to go up another level, with a minimum of logical fuss. Practitioners, for the most part, aren't bothered by questions of exact logical strength, which they typically regard as being pedantry. But they will get annoyed if you tell them they have to fuss around with technical protocols in order to obey proper hygiene. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 19:47
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ @ZuhairAl-Johar A priori you need more than just them satisfying ZFC. For instance you want all sequences of elements from $V_\kappa$ of length smaller than $\kappa$ to have a bound in $V_\kappa$. Worldliness only guarantees this for sequences which are definable in $V_\kappa$. If you used worldlies, then you would always need to worry about such issues of definability. But if you do worry about strength, then as the answer explains, already ZFC is enough $\endgroup$
    – Wojowu
    Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 19:47
  • $\begingroup$ @Wojowu, well is that a main concern from the Category theory side? If so, then why do Muller suggests his theory ARC? Clearly, his subworld (as well as any of the iterative powers over it) won't assure that for the indefinable sequences you've alluded to? The impact of this point on work in Category theory needs to be emphasized if it is a main concern, since this virtually almost invalidates Muller's claims. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 20:13
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ @ZuhairAl-Johar Wojowu's example is a good one. Shulman's article gives other examples where you have to check how much Replacement you're using. I wouldn't call any of these a "main concern" or a decisive consideration; it's just a matter of what sorts of things you find annoying and what sorts of things you are happy to tolerate. If you share Muller's preferences then you may like his approach, but others who want to minimize checking technicalities and aren't bothered by "superabundancy" may prefer universes. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 20:46
5
$\begingroup$

This ultimately depends on what 'kind' of category theory you want to do; it's one of those studies that can really get as 'large' as you want it to, and this is part of what enables us to 'study everything' with it.

Suppose you just want to use category theory to augment your understanding of groups. You can probably get away with just $ZFC$; yes, ${\bf Group}$ is ultimately a locally small category and not a small one, but you can use various tricks (Scott's trick, treating proper classes as their defining sentences in the language of set theory, looking at only groups with certain properties, etc.) to get everything you need in house with $ZFC$.

Now suppose you want to study category theory using category theory. You want to be able to talk about small, locally small, and large categories, and maybe even a few 'levels above this' in a sense that is clear to the categorical intuition but completely undefined in $ZFC$ (outside of absurd stages of 'viewing $n$-classes as their defining formulae', which just feels weird outside of one or maybe two stages to me). You probably could get away with $ZFC$ plus some number of worldly cardinals (corresponding to whatever $n^{th}$ stage of 'class' you need), and this seems (to me) a likely sweet spot for this study. Your suggestion to use the $\omega+1^{th}$ stage is a good one, since $V_{@_\omega}$ is where we would probably want to do $\infty$-category theory for a good ratio of convenience to consistency strength without fussing too much about things that aren't category theory.

Now, suppose you want to study all different kinds of set theories and the relationships between them using category theory. This would require a background theory that allowed you to construct categories of sets in each set theoretical universe, categories of categories in each universe, and categories whose objects are these categories of various kinds from all universes. This is well-defined since (higher) category theory is ultimately the study of structure, and these things have a structure to them, but the foundation involved (if consistent) would have to be able to reproduce models of all possible set theories and thereby prove their consistency, exceeding all of them in consistency strength.

But we're ultimately missing what is probably the most important point here: most working category theorists feel that material set theories are the wrong 'type' of foundation for category theory (see what I did there). If they work with 'set theory' as a foundation at all they usually work in structural set theories, and even this is somewhat unorthodox. The standard answer to the question in the first sentence of your post (with the words set theoretic removed), for most working category theorists, is simply

Type theory.

As someone preferential to material set theories for founding all of mathematics I am sympathetic to questions like this, but I feel it's important to remember that we're an extreme minority in the category theory community -- I suspect that if you polled 100 'working' category theorists on what the proper foundation for category theory is, you would get very few responses that even mentioned set theory at all.

$\endgroup$
8
  • $\begingroup$ Naive question— Why not just use as many large cardinals as you need, building categories of sets of categories of sets, etc, and viewing things as always small from some higher perspective, rather than insisting on working with proper classes, which we know since Russell can get troublesome? $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 8:47
  • $\begingroup$ @MonroeEskew, if you permit me to answer: part of what you suggest is already running, but this cannot be unleashed since it would be haunted by superabundacy (Muller). The work with proper classes is actually begnine here since it can be interpreted in the standard line of set theory, so there is no trouble relative to set theory. But part of what you say is already done you can have category of larger and larger classes etc.. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 11:30
  • 4
    $\begingroup$ Muller takes it as self-evident that superabundancy is bad: universes are "so ridiculously large in comparison to what we actually need to found category-theory, that is unbelievable it has even been considered seriously." This is a telltale sign that Muller is not an active practitioner, because he fails to recognize that universes are, above all, convenient in practice. They let you sweep set-theoretic technicalities under the rug with the bare minimum of attention. Now if you want to minimize assumptions, that's another story. The best foundation depends on what you want to do. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 13:35
  • 6
    $\begingroup$ @ReidBarton Large cardinal axioms won't introduce new solutions to concrete Diophantine equations. It's just barely conceivable that they might let you prove the nonexistence of solutions to certain concrete Diophantine equations. But if you succeed in doing this and are unhappy to discover that the large cardinal axioms are ineliminable from your argument, then you might take consolation in the fact that you have just revolutionized mathematics, since nothing remotely like that has ever happened before, despite many people trying. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 26, 2022 at 14:04
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ @MonroeEskew For the purposes of category theory I think your suggestion is perfectly sound, and probably the least-effort version for someone already familiar with $ZFC$ and the notion of an inaccessible cardinal. For me, a primary object of interest in any universe of sets is the surreal numbers, so any large cardinals we add are numbers in a number system I want to consider. Adding more cardinals and looking at the universe below them is like 'adding a new number and then ignoring all the numbers equal to larger than that number', which feels very unnatural to me. $\endgroup$
    – Alec Rhea
    Commented Jun 27, 2022 at 10:51

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .