Skip to main content
replaced http://mathoverflow.net/ with https://mathoverflow.net/
Source Link

But it is known that $2^{\mathbb N}/E_0$ does not admit a Borel structure in any reasonable fashion, since in fact it is not even linearly orderable in any reasonably definable manner, see this answeranswer.

But it is known that $2^{\mathbb N}/E_0$ does not admit a Borel structure in any reasonable fashion, since in fact it is not even linearly orderable in any reasonably definable manner, see this answer.

But it is known that $2^{\mathbb N}/E_0$ does not admit a Borel structure in any reasonable fashion, since in fact it is not even linearly orderable in any reasonably definable manner, see this answer.

added 5 characters in body; added 5 characters in body
Source Link
Andrés E. Caicedo
  • 32.5k
  • 5
  • 133
  • 240

A very general reason showing this is an old observation of Tarski, that follows from Zermelo's work on the well-ordering theorem: In $\mathsf{ZF}$, for any set $X$ we have $|X|<|\mathcal W(X)|$$|X|\lt |\mathcal W(X)|$, where $\mathcal W(X)$ denotes the collection of well-orderable subsets of $X$. If $\omega_1\not\le|\mathbb R|$, then $\mathcal W(\mathbb R)$ is $[\mathbb R]^{\le\aleph_0}$.

To see the inequality, simply note that any $f:\mathcal W(X)\to X$ gives rise ("by recursion") to a unique $W$ with a well-ordering $<$$\lt$ such that $f(W)\in W$ and $f(\{a\in W\mid a<x\})=x$$$f(\{a\in W\mid a\lt x\})=x$$ for any $x\in W$. But then $W$ witnesses that $f$ is not injective.]

A very general reason showing this is an old observation of Tarski, that follows from Zermelo's work on the well-ordering theorem: In $\mathsf{ZF}$, for any set $X$ we have $|X|<|\mathcal W(X)|$, where $\mathcal W(X)$ denotes the collection of well-orderable subsets of $X$. If $\omega_1\not\le|\mathbb R|$, then $\mathcal W(\mathbb R)$ is $[\mathbb R]^{\le\aleph_0}$.

To see the inequality, simply note that any $f:\mathcal W(X)\to X$ gives rise ("by recursion") to a unique $W$ with a well-ordering $<$ such that $f(W)\in W$ and $f(\{a\in W\mid a<x\})=x$ for any $x\in W$. But then $W$ witnesses that $f$ is not injective.]

A very general reason showing this is an old observation of Tarski, that follows from Zermelo's work on the well-ordering theorem: In $\mathsf{ZF}$, for any set $X$ we have $|X|\lt |\mathcal W(X)|$, where $\mathcal W(X)$ denotes the collection of well-orderable subsets of $X$. If $\omega_1\not\le|\mathbb R|$, then $\mathcal W(\mathbb R)$ is $[\mathbb R]^{\le\aleph_0}$.

To see the inequality, simply note that any $f:\mathcal W(X)\to X$ gives rise ("by recursion") to a unique $W$ with a well-ordering $\lt$ such that $f(W)\in W$ and $$f(\{a\in W\mid a\lt x\})=x$$ for any $x\in W$. But then $W$ witnesses that $f$ is not injective.]

added 1121 characters in body
Source Link
Andrés E. Caicedo
  • 32.5k
  • 5
  • 133
  • 240

[Edit, Sep. 22, 2012: I am leaving the original answer below, but Andreas's comment is the right approach, so I am incorporating it into the answer, adding a bit of context. We want to argue that there is no definable bijection between $[\mathbb R]^{\le\aleph_0}$ and $\mathbb R$. It suffices to show that there is no such bijection in Solovay's model, or under determinacy. In fact, there is no such bijection in any model where $\omega_1\not\le|\mathbb R|$.

A very general reason showing this is an old observation of Tarski, that follows from Zermelo's work on the well-ordering theorem: In $\mathsf{ZF}$, for any set $X$ we have $|X|<|\mathcal W(X)|$, where $\mathcal W(X)$ denotes the collection of well-orderable subsets of $X$. If $\omega_1\not\le|\mathbb R|$, then $\mathcal W(\mathbb R)$ is $[\mathbb R]^{\le\aleph_0}$.

To see the inequality, simply note that any $f:\mathcal W(X)\to X$ gives rise ("by recursion") to a unique $W$ with a well-ordering $<$ such that $f(W)\in W$ and $f(\{a\in W\mid a<x\})=x$ for any $x\in W$. But then $W$ witnesses that $f$ is not injective.]


Joel's answer shows that there is no Borel $f:{\mathbb R}^\omega\to{\mathbb R}$ that is invariant under the equivalence relation that identifies sequences if they have the same range and such that $f(\vec x)$ is not in the range of $\vec x$.

Joel's answer shows that there is no Borel $f:{\mathbb R}^\omega\to{\mathbb R}$ that is invariant under the equivalence relation that identifies sequences if they have the same range and such that $f(\vec x)$ is not in the range of $\vec x$.

[Edit, Sep. 22, 2012: I am leaving the original answer below, but Andreas's comment is the right approach, so I am incorporating it into the answer, adding a bit of context. We want to argue that there is no definable bijection between $[\mathbb R]^{\le\aleph_0}$ and $\mathbb R$. It suffices to show that there is no such bijection in Solovay's model, or under determinacy. In fact, there is no such bijection in any model where $\omega_1\not\le|\mathbb R|$.

A very general reason showing this is an old observation of Tarski, that follows from Zermelo's work on the well-ordering theorem: In $\mathsf{ZF}$, for any set $X$ we have $|X|<|\mathcal W(X)|$, where $\mathcal W(X)$ denotes the collection of well-orderable subsets of $X$. If $\omega_1\not\le|\mathbb R|$, then $\mathcal W(\mathbb R)$ is $[\mathbb R]^{\le\aleph_0}$.

To see the inequality, simply note that any $f:\mathcal W(X)\to X$ gives rise ("by recursion") to a unique $W$ with a well-ordering $<$ such that $f(W)\in W$ and $f(\{a\in W\mid a<x\})=x$ for any $x\in W$. But then $W$ witnesses that $f$ is not injective.]


Joel's answer shows that there is no Borel $f:{\mathbb R}^\omega\to{\mathbb R}$ that is invariant under the equivalence relation that identifies sequences if they have the same range and such that $f(\vec x)$ is not in the range of $\vec x$.

Source Link
Andrés E. Caicedo
  • 32.5k
  • 5
  • 133
  • 240
Loading