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Joel David Hamkins
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The confusion seems to arise from your statement "the mantle of $V$ which is the smallest ground for $V$." But this not quite right.

In a bottomless model of ZFC, the mantle is not a ground. It is the intersection of all the grounds, but it isn't one of them. In a bottomless model, one can just keep going to deeper and deeper ground models, without ever landing at a minimal ground.

One can easily make a bottomless model like this by forcing over $L$, say, with the Easton product class forcing to add a Cohen subset to every regular cardinal. The model arising from any final segment of this forcing (from $\kappa$ and above) is a ground of $L[G]$, since only the set-sized forcing below $\kappa$ is missing. Every ground model of $L[G]$ will contain some final segment of the overall forcing, and one can always peel off a few more factors. So the mantle of $L[G]$ will be $L$ itself.

In the general case, we proved in the geology paper that every model of ZFC arises as the mantle of another model of ZFC.

Note that a bottomless model can have no extendible cardinal, because by Usuba's theorem the mantle would be a ground, so it wouldn't be bottomless.

The confusion seems to arise from your statement "the mantle of $V$ which is the smallest ground for $V$." But this not quite right.

In a bottomless model of ZFC, the mantle is not a ground. It is the intersection of all the grounds, but it isn't one of them. In a bottomless model, one can just keep going to deeper and deeper ground models, without ever landing at a minimal ground.

One can easily make a model like this by forcing over $L$, say, with the Easton product class forcing to add a Cohen subset to every regular cardinal. The model arising from any final segment of this forcing (from $\kappa$ and above) is a ground of $L[G]$, since only the set-sized forcing below $\kappa$ is missing. Every ground model of $L[G]$ will contain some final segment of the overall forcing, and one can always peel off a few more factors. So the mantle of $L[G]$ will be $L$ itself.

In the general case, we proved in the geology paper that every model of ZFC arises as the mantle of another model of ZFC.

The confusion seems to arise from your statement "the mantle of $V$ which is the smallest ground for $V$." But this not quite right.

In a bottomless model of ZFC, the mantle is not a ground. It is the intersection of all the grounds, but it isn't one of them. In a bottomless model, one can just keep going to deeper and deeper ground models, without ever landing at a minimal ground.

One can easily make a bottomless model by forcing over $L$, say, with the Easton product class forcing to add a Cohen subset to every regular cardinal. The model arising from any final segment of this forcing (from $\kappa$ and above) is a ground of $L[G]$, since only the set-sized forcing below $\kappa$ is missing. Every ground model of $L[G]$ will contain some final segment of the overall forcing, and one can always peel off a few more factors. So the mantle of $L[G]$ will be $L$ itself.

In the general case, we proved in the geology paper that every model of ZFC arises as the mantle of another model of ZFC.

Note that a bottomless model can have no extendible cardinal, because by Usuba's theorem the mantle would be a ground, so it wouldn't be bottomless.

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Joel David Hamkins
  • 236.3k
  • 44
  • 777
  • 1.4k

The confusion seems to arise from your statement "the mantle of $V$ which is the smallest ground for $V$." But this not quite right.

In a bottomless model of ZFC, the mantle is not a ground. OneIt is the intersection of all the grounds, but it isn't one of them. In a bottomless model, one can just keep going to deeper and deeper ground models, but there is nowithout ever landing at a minimal ground.

One can easily make a model like this by forcing over $L$, say, with the Easton product class forcing to add a Cohen subset to every regular cardinal. The model arising from any final segment of this forcing (from $\kappa$ and above) is a ground of $L[G]$, since only the set-sized forcing below $\kappa$ is missing. Every ground model of $L[G]$ will contain some final segment of the overall forcing, and one can always peel off a few more factors. So the mantle of $L[G]$ will be $L$ itself.

In the general case, we proved in the geology paper that every model of ZFC arises as the mantle of another model of ZFC.

In a bottomless model of ZFC, the mantle is not a ground. One can just keep going to deeper and deeper ground models, but there is no minimal ground.

One can easily make a model like this by forcing over $L$, say, with the Easton product class forcing to add a Cohen subset to every regular cardinal. The model arising from any final segment of this forcing (from $\kappa$ and above) is a ground of $L[G]$, since only the set-sized forcing below $\kappa$ is missing. Every ground model of $L[G]$ will contain some final segment of the overall forcing, and one can always peel off a few more factors. So the mantle of $L[G]$ will be $L$ itself.

In the general case, we proved in the geology paper that every model of ZFC arises as the mantle of another model of ZFC.

The confusion seems to arise from your statement "the mantle of $V$ which is the smallest ground for $V$." But this not quite right.

In a bottomless model of ZFC, the mantle is not a ground. It is the intersection of all the grounds, but it isn't one of them. In a bottomless model, one can just keep going to deeper and deeper ground models, without ever landing at a minimal ground.

One can easily make a model like this by forcing over $L$, say, with the Easton product class forcing to add a Cohen subset to every regular cardinal. The model arising from any final segment of this forcing (from $\kappa$ and above) is a ground of $L[G]$, since only the set-sized forcing below $\kappa$ is missing. Every ground model of $L[G]$ will contain some final segment of the overall forcing, and one can always peel off a few more factors. So the mantle of $L[G]$ will be $L$ itself.

In the general case, we proved in the geology paper that every model of ZFC arises as the mantle of another model of ZFC.

Source Link
Joel David Hamkins
  • 236.3k
  • 44
  • 777
  • 1.4k

In a bottomless model of ZFC, the mantle is not a ground. One can just keep going to deeper and deeper ground models, but there is no minimal ground.

One can easily make a model like this by forcing over $L$, say, with the Easton product class forcing to add a Cohen subset to every regular cardinal. The model arising from any final segment of this forcing (from $\kappa$ and above) is a ground of $L[G]$, since only the set-sized forcing below $\kappa$ is missing. Every ground model of $L[G]$ will contain some final segment of the overall forcing, and one can always peel off a few more factors. So the mantle of $L[G]$ will be $L$ itself.

In the general case, we proved in the geology paper that every model of ZFC arises as the mantle of another model of ZFC.