Skip to main content
added 131 characters in body
Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.5k
  • 10
  • 110
  • 331

Basically, if $\varphi$ is irreducibly self-referential via $\chi$, then (modulo a special consideration for the role of $\mathsf{PA}$) reading $\varphi$ as "I have property $\chi$" is both appropriate and optimalcompletely justified: not only is there no information lost (corresponding to inequivalent fixed points), but there is also no unnecessary self-reference added.

Basically, if $\varphi$ is irreducibly self-referential via $\chi$, then (modulo a special consideration for the role of $\mathsf{PA}$) reading $\varphi$ as "I have property $\chi$" is both appropriate and optimal.

Basically, if $\varphi$ is irreducibly self-referential via $\chi$, then (modulo a special consideration for the role of $\mathsf{PA}$) reading $\varphi$ as "I have property $\chi$" is completely justified: not only is there no information lost (corresponding to inequivalent fixed points), but there is also no unnecessary self-reference added.

Notice removed Draw attention by CommunityBot
Bounty Ended with no winning answer by CommunityBot
deleted 7 characters in body
Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.5k
  • 10
  • 110
  • 331
  • Non-example: Let $\chi=\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ be the usual unprovability predicate for $\mathsf{PA}$, and let $\varphi$ be a fixed point for that predicate. It is known that any two fixed points of $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_\mathsf{PA}$ are $\mathsf{PA}$-provably equivalent, so $\varphi$ satisfies the 1/2-equivalence. However, taking $\psi=\perp$ we see that $\varphi$ fails to satisfy the 1/3-equivalence: $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\neg\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(\perp)\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is true (indeed this is how we establish the 1/2 equivalence for $\varphi$) but $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\perp\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is (hopefully!) not. So the usual Godel sentence is not irreducibly self-referential via $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ ... although in principle it could be irreducibly self-referential via some other formula.

  • Silly examples: On the other hand, the unmodified provability formula $\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(-)$ does show that every $\mathsf{PA}$-theorem is irreducibly self-referential. Suppose $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ and $\psi$ is some other sentence. By Lob's Theorem, condition (2) is equivalent to $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which in turn is equivalent to condition $(1)$ since $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$, and we clearly have condition $(1)$ implying condition $(3)$. Meanwhile, soundness of $\mathsf{PA}$ + $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ also shows that $(3)$ implies $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which gives us $(1)$. A related argument via non-disprovability gives the i.s.r.-ness of every $\mathsf{PA}$-disprovable sentence. (An earlier version of this claim was bonkers; thanksThanks to Fedor Pakhomov and Sridhar Ramesh for pointingfixing very silly errors in this outpart!)

  • Non-example: Let $\chi=\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ be the usual unprovability predicate for $\mathsf{PA}$, and let $\varphi$ be a fixed point for that predicate. It is known that any two fixed points of $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_\mathsf{PA}$ are $\mathsf{PA}$-provably equivalent, so $\varphi$ satisfies the 1/2-equivalence. However, taking $\psi=\perp$ we see that $\varphi$ fails to satisfy the 1/3-equivalence: $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\neg\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(\perp)\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is true (indeed this is how we establish the 1/2 equivalence for $\varphi$) but $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\perp\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is (hopefully!) not. So the usual Godel sentence is not irreducibly self-referential via $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ ... although in principle it could be irreducibly self-referential via some other formula.

  • Silly examples: On the other hand, the unmodified provability formula $\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(-)$ does show that every $\mathsf{PA}$-theorem is irreducibly self-referential. Suppose $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ and $\psi$ is some other sentence. By Lob's Theorem, condition (2) is equivalent to $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which in turn is equivalent to condition $(1)$ since $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$, and we clearly have condition $(1)$ implying condition $(3)$. Meanwhile, soundness of $\mathsf{PA}$ + $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ also shows that $(3)$ implies $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which gives us $(1)$. A related argument via non-disprovability gives the i.s.r.-ness of every $\mathsf{PA}$-disprovable sentence. (An earlier version of this claim was bonkers; thanks to Fedor Pakhomov for pointing this out!)

  • Non-example: Let $\chi=\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ be the usual unprovability predicate for $\mathsf{PA}$, and let $\varphi$ be a fixed point for that predicate. It is known that any two fixed points of $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_\mathsf{PA}$ are $\mathsf{PA}$-provably equivalent, so $\varphi$ satisfies the 1/2-equivalence. However, taking $\psi=\perp$ we see that $\varphi$ fails to satisfy the 1/3-equivalence: $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\neg\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(\perp)\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is true (indeed this is how we establish the 1/2 equivalence for $\varphi$) but $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\perp\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is (hopefully!) not. So the usual Godel sentence is not irreducibly self-referential via $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ ... although in principle it could be irreducibly self-referential via some other formula.

  • Silly examples: On the other hand, the unmodified provability formula $\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(-)$ does show that every $\mathsf{PA}$-theorem is irreducibly self-referential. Suppose $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ and $\psi$ is some other sentence. By Lob's Theorem, condition (2) is equivalent to $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which in turn is equivalent to condition $(1)$ since $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$, and we clearly have condition $(1)$ implying condition $(3)$. Meanwhile, soundness of $\mathsf{PA}$ + $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ also shows that $(3)$ implies $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which gives us $(1)$. A related argument via non-disprovability gives the i.s.r.-ness of every $\mathsf{PA}$-disprovable sentence. (Thanks to Fedor Pakhomov and Sridhar Ramesh for fixing very silly errors in this part!)

Notice added Draw attention by Noah Schweber
Bounty Started worth 400 reputation by Noah Schweber
added 13 characters in body
Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.5k
  • 10
  • 110
  • 331
  • Non-example: Let $\chi=\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ be the usual unprovability predicate for $\mathsf{PA}$, and let $\varphi$ be a fixed point for that predicate. It is known that any two fixed points of $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_\mathsf{PA}$ are $\mathsf{PA}$-provably equivalent, so $\varphi$ satisfies the 1/2-equivalence. However, taking $\psi=\perp$ we see that $\varphi$ fails to satisfy the 1/3-equivalence: $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\neg\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(\perp)\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is true (indeed this is how we establish the 1/2 equivalence for $\varphi$) but $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\perp\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is (hopefully!) not. So the usual Godel sentence is not irreducibly self-referential via $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ ... although in principle it could be irreducibly self-referential via some other formula.

  • Silly examples: On the other hand, the unmodified provability formula $\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(-)$ does show that every $\mathsf{PA}$-theorem is irreducibly self-referential. Suppose $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ and $\psi$ is some other sentence. By Lob's Theorem, condition (2) is equivalent to $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which in turn is equivalent to condition $(1)$ since $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$, and we clearly have condition $(1)$ implying condition $(3)$. Meanwhile, Lob's Theoremsoundness of $\mathsf{PA}$ + $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ also shows that $(3)$ implies $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which gives us $(1)$. A related argument via non-disprovability gives the i.s.r.-ness of every $\mathsf{PA}$-disprovable sentence. (An earlier version of this claim was bonkers; thanks to Fedor Pakhomov for pointing this out!)

  • Non-example: Let $\chi=\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ be the usual unprovability predicate for $\mathsf{PA}$, and let $\varphi$ be a fixed point for that predicate. It is known that any two fixed points of $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_\mathsf{PA}$ are $\mathsf{PA}$-provably equivalent, so $\varphi$ satisfies the 1/2-equivalence. However, taking $\psi=\perp$ we see that $\varphi$ fails to satisfy the 1/3-equivalence: $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\neg\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(\perp)\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is true (indeed this is how we establish the 1/2 equivalence for $\varphi$) but $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\perp\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is (hopefully!) not. So the usual Godel sentence is not irreducibly self-referential via $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ ... although in principle it could be irreducibly self-referential via some other formula.

  • Silly examples: On the other hand, the unmodified provability formula $\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(-)$ does show that every $\mathsf{PA}$-theorem is irreducibly self-referential. Suppose $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ and $\psi$ is some other sentence. By Lob's Theorem, condition (2) is equivalent to $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which in turn is equivalent to condition $(1)$ since $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$, and we clearly have condition $(1)$ implying condition $(3)$. Meanwhile, Lob's Theorem + $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ also shows that $(3)$ implies $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which gives us $(1)$. A related argument via non-disprovability gives the i.s.r.-ness of every $\mathsf{PA}$-disprovable sentence. (An earlier version of this claim was bonkers; thanks to Fedor Pakhomov for pointing this out!)

  • Non-example: Let $\chi=\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ be the usual unprovability predicate for $\mathsf{PA}$, and let $\varphi$ be a fixed point for that predicate. It is known that any two fixed points of $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_\mathsf{PA}$ are $\mathsf{PA}$-provably equivalent, so $\varphi$ satisfies the 1/2-equivalence. However, taking $\psi=\perp$ we see that $\varphi$ fails to satisfy the 1/3-equivalence: $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\neg\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(\perp)\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is true (indeed this is how we establish the 1/2 equivalence for $\varphi$) but $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\perp\leftrightarrow\varphi$ is (hopefully!) not. So the usual Godel sentence is not irreducibly self-referential via $\neg\mathsf{Prov}_{\mathsf{PA}}$ ... although in principle it could be irreducibly self-referential via some other formula.

  • Silly examples: On the other hand, the unmodified provability formula $\mathsf{Prov_{PA}}(-)$ does show that every $\mathsf{PA}$-theorem is irreducibly self-referential. Suppose $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ and $\psi$ is some other sentence. By Lob's Theorem, condition (2) is equivalent to $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which in turn is equivalent to condition $(1)$ since $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$, and we clearly have condition $(1)$ implying condition $(3)$. Meanwhile, soundness of $\mathsf{PA}$ + $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\varphi$ also shows that $(3)$ implies $\mathsf{PA}\vdash\psi$, which gives us $(1)$. A related argument via non-disprovability gives the i.s.r.-ness of every $\mathsf{PA}$-disprovable sentence. (An earlier version of this claim was bonkers; thanks to Fedor Pakhomov for pointing this out!)

Notice removed Draw attention by CommunityBot
Bounty Ended with no winning answer by CommunityBot
added 341 characters in body
Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.5k
  • 10
  • 110
  • 331
Loading
Notice added Draw attention by Noah Schweber
Bounty Started worth 200 reputation by Noah Schweber
Source Link
Noah Schweber
  • 20.5k
  • 10
  • 110
  • 331
Loading