Timeline for A Learning Roadmap request: From high-school to mid-undergraduate studies
Current License: CC BY-SA 2.5
25 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| May 30, 2011 at 13:39 | comment | added | Todd Trimble | "And now for your moment of Zen..." (sorry; couldn't resist!) | |
| Jul 22, 2010 at 22:41 | comment | added | Zen Harper | Best of luck whatever you decide; I look forward to seeing your future questions with great interest! Be very wary of everything anyone tells you, though, including me! Maybe I'm just being wrong and stupid myself. I do get a bit carried away sometimes. Usually, only a tiny minority of commenters agree with my viewpoints (at least in public). I suspect that there are more people out there who silently agree, but are too scared to leave similar comments themselves for fear of being offensive, tactless, overly cynical, negative, or whatever. Anyway, that's enough comments from me, I think! | |
| Jul 22, 2010 at 15:45 | comment | added | Max Lonysa Muller | I did not downvote (but upvoted!) your answer because I think you did provide me with a very realistic viewpoint and I'm very thankful that you've warned me. You said what I may did not want to hear and your honesty is admirable. You did not discourage me. I think you did the contrary. Being aware of the 'dangers' motivates to me work harder to excell. I have considered doing Applied/C.S. stuff. I can combine it with mathematics, and if it turns out that doing both is to hard after a while, I can decide to study only of these subjects. | |
| Jul 21, 2010 at 15:37 | comment | added | Zen Harper | Hi Max, I don't wish to discourage you, but if you're not the best mathematician in your school then you should be even more careful and well-prepared; Pure mathematics is very, very hard and difficult and highly unlikely to lead to success. Maybe you should consider doing Applied/Physics/Engineering stuff as your main subject, and treating Pure Mathematics as a hobby rather than your main course of study. Only you can judge yourself well enough to decide. (Also, what's called "pure" in school is in fact mostly "applied" - there is almost no real "pure" mathematics at school). | |
| Jul 21, 2010 at 15:36 | comment | added | Zen Harper | Hi Max and everyone else, Yes, I am not very diplomatic; but I'm a mathematician, not a politician. I don't see why reasonable people would get offended by what I say. If you disagree, then explain why you think I'm wrong, or vote me down. It doesn't offend me, everyone is free to decide themselves. But I feel it's my duty to offer opposing viewpoints. I feel I'm "realistic" rather than "pessimistic"; the world and "the Academic System" contain far more evil, dishonest, unethical, corrupt people (including mathematicians) than we like to think about; why did Perelman and Grothendieck escape? | |
| Jul 21, 2010 at 2:29 | comment | added | Max Lonysa Muller | By the way, I don't think I'm the best mathematician of my school... I wish. I have to work pretty hard to obtain high grades. I am surpassed by some. I am very interested in mathematics, however. Intruiged by its beauty and 'honesty', I'm willing to work hard to learn more about it. | |
| Jul 20, 2010 at 19:46 | comment | added | Max Lonysa Muller | As for the money: I'm not 100% sure I want a phd in mathematics. Perhaps in 6-7 years I won't be that interested in pure mathematics anymore. I think many mathematicians are able to find a job at a company without too much trouble. As we all know, mathematics is used in a wide array of fields. If I decide to study at Leiden University, In the first year I can switch to 'applied mathematics' in Delft University, with a bit of extra work. Maybe I will combine my first year of study of pure mathematics with physics or computer science, which will surely enlarge my chances on the job-market. | |
| Jul 20, 2010 at 19:34 | comment | added | Max Lonysa Muller | @ Zen: thanks for your answer. I believe your advice is well-intended, though a bit ill-phrased at times. I know pursuing a carreer in pure mathematics won't make you millionair, and I realize doing mathematical research can be very lonely. I think, however, that I'm socially apt enough to avoid the 'lifetime social exclusion' you mentioned. Even when everyone I tell I'm a mathematician or intend to be one, decides to reject me purely on the basis of separate interests or the not-so-sexy public image of 'the mathematician', I can always talk to like-minded people: mathematicians! | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 23:16 | comment | added | Zen Harper | Michael: this is getting off the subject of the original question, but what do you mean by "school math", "no extracurricular learning",...I don't understand? I'm wondering what one should do when you've completed a Ph.D. in Pure Mathematics and amassed a modest collection of published papers, but the postdocs/lecturing positions have all dried up and you've left the university system (or are approaching the end of your current position), with no new university job offer: what should you do? In fact, maybe I will ask this question myself... | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 22:48 | comment | added | Michael Hoffman | 100 candidates? How many jobs have you applied for recently? Most jobs have 100+ candidates at least applying, especially specialized jobs. It also certainly isn't true that mathematicians have worse employability than other academic studies, at least not as an overall figure. If you do nothing but school math and no extracurricular learning and internships and research, yes, employment will be hard, but that's true in many cases. | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 18:01 | comment | added | Zen Harper | I genuinely believe that your optimal employability is just after your B.Sc. (or maybe M.Sc.), but continuing with your Ph.D. seriously damages it. The very same employers who were rushing to my university, handing out leaflets, free pens, etc. etc. desperately trying to recruit all of us in our final undergraduate year, now tear up my CV and throw it in the bin when I apply to them. And many universities tell me (when they bother to reply at all) that there were over 100 candidates (FACT!) for the position, blah blah blah... So, how good is a Pure Mathematics Ph.D. for employability?! | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 17:53 | comment | added | Zen Harper | ...but NONE OF THIS applies (as far as I know) to Physicists, Chemists, Engineers, etc. etc. who are easily able to do practically the same job in a non-university environment, with a reasonable amount of choice in where to go. | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 17:50 | comment | added | Zen Harper | ...and that's only for the really, really good ones who are fortunate enough to get postdocs. The rest are FORCED to leave the university system altogether, when they suddenly find (despite what THE SYSTEM leads us to believe, starting from childhood) that most non-academic employers HATE mathematicians, and wouldn't touch a qualified Doctor of Mathematics with a ten-foot barge pole... (unless your Ph.D. is in Applied Maths or Statistics of course). | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 17:43 | comment | added | Zen Harper | The reason I feel the need to say all this (this is for the benefit of Max and other youngsters) is that what many careers advisors say at school and university, when talking about mathematicians, is just completely wrong. By all means, do Mathematics because you have a lot of interest and ability; but don't do it to get a good job! To get a permanent position, a Ph.D. mathematician needs YEARS of travelling around the world doing various postdocs, only a year or two at a time, with little control over where they go next. It's impossible to have any kind of financial or social stability. | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 17:31 | comment | added | Zen Harper | To clarify (please remember I am talking about England; maybe other countries are better). To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), EVERY other career requiring a comparable level of training/experience has better prospects (in terms of employability, numbers of jobs, salaries, ease of actually getting a job,...): medicine, accounting/financial/actuarial, engineering, software/computing, etc. etc. There are also careers requiring substantially less training, but still with much better prospects. Furthermore, the "general public" are not prejudiced against them in the same way. | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 17:11 | comment | added | Zen Harper | Andrew L and Michal Kotowski: maybe you have very successful mathematical careers, with a good salary, in a nice location of your choosing, with employers and friends who value and appreciate you. If so, good for you. But not everyone has. (I have had some of these, but never all at the same time; and the same is true of a surprisingly large number of mathematicians, based on what I've observed over the years). Michal, I didn't say "don't listen to physicists". I said "Don't listen to everything physicists say", which is very different. | |
| Jul 19, 2010 at 17:00 | history | edited | Zen Harper | CC BY-SA 2.5 |
added 789 characters in body
|
| Jul 19, 2010 at 16:37 | comment | added | Zen Harper | I suspected some people might comment on my answer, but I didn't think I'd get this much. Sorry if people don't appreciate my remarks. I would have thought it was obvious that some of my comments are not 100% serious, but contain a small element of humour. However, these are not mere jokes; I am at least 90% serious about them (this is a "soft" question after all). Why shouldn't I give my own opinions? They are just as valid as everyone else's. | |
| Jul 18, 2010 at 5:14 | comment | added | Yemon Choi | That said, Zen, you should really reconsider your last statement. People here (myself included) might not just disagree about your definition of poverty and social exclusion, but find your flippant use of them rather ill-mannered. | |
| Jul 18, 2010 at 2:39 | comment | added | Yemon Choi | Michal: while I don't agree with everything Zen said, and would find his style of writing more off-putting if I didn't (disclaimer) already know him: if he has negative feelings, based on experience or observation, why shouldn't he air them? People occasionally need warnings as well as encouragement. | |
| Jul 17, 2010 at 10:15 | comment | added | Michal Kotowski | I am disgusted by ZH's answer, really. Not only many things are downright wrong ("Don't listen to physicists...", "Prepare for poverty..."), but the very tone of a frustrated rant (with, of course, obligatory exclamations marks and boldface) is anything but inspiring to a beginner. | |
| Jul 17, 2010 at 3:01 | comment | added | The Mathemagician | @Zen continued I do agree with you that a PHD in mathematics needs to have very general skills and to be well-versed in many subjects.Not only is it practical in that it will make him or her more employable,it will add enormous range and depth to thier research abilities. | |
| Jul 17, 2010 at 2:57 | comment | added | The Mathemagician | "...lifetime social exclusion,povery and unemployment"?!? Just about everyone I know with a PHD in mathematics has a good paying job and lots of friends,Zen. You won't get rich by any means,but you're making it sound like he's going to end up a hermit mopping floors! Not only is this simply incorrect-unless the mathematician's area is something very abstract and isolated-his life will not be so desolate and deplorable! Now if you refuse to get a job unless it's being on faculty at a university-like some unreasonably stubborn academics-that's a different story..... | |
| Jul 17, 2010 at 2:51 | history | edited | Zen Harper | CC BY-SA 2.5 |
added 316 characters in body
|
| Jul 17, 2010 at 2:45 | history | answered | Zen Harper | CC BY-SA 2.5 |