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Revised answer for case mu_1 not in ran(j_01).
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Joel David Hamkins
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This is an excellent and interesting question! You are asking asking whether the 2-step iteration of a normal measure μ μ on a measurable cardinal κ is uniquely factored by by the steps of the iteration itself.

(I think I have just been exchanging email with you--or perhaps with one of your colleagues, with a different name?--about the one-dimensional version of this question The answer is Yes.)

My answer is that No, you haven't quite got all the possibilitiesLet me denote κ0 just by κ and j02 by j. Since The reason is that actually, thereμ1 is a commuting square of elementary embeddings formeasure in M1, it has the 2-step iteration form j01(m)(κ), as followswhere m = (να | α < κ). Since you The ultrapower jhave said that μ021 is just the ultrapower of Vnot in byran(j01), we may choose the measure μ x μ να to be all different, and itdifferent from μ0. In this case, there is a standardpartition model-theoretic fact thatof κ as the ultrapowerdisjoint union of any structureXα, by a product measurewith Xα in να and none in μ0. Let x ν= (Xα | α < κ). Note that κ is to first take thenot in ultrapower by νj01(Xα) for any α < κ, and then take the ultrapower by μsimilarly κ1 is not in j(Xα). But κ is in The lower halfj01(x)(β) for some β < κ1, since this is a partition of the square κ1. Apply j12 to conclude that κ1 is in j(x)(β) for this β. Thus, there is some β in the iteration you have definedinterval [κ, with κ1) having the diagonal being jform β = j(f)(κ021. The upper half of) for the square isfunction f that jpicks the index. From this, it follows from normality of μ020 is also equal to the composition that we can write κ = j(g)(κ011.) for some function g, since any β < κ1 generates κ via j01. This is not obviousIn my favored terminology, but it can be verified by proving the model-theoreticseed κ1 generates κ via j and in fact that I mentionedgenerates all β in [κ,κ1) via j. Thus

Similarly, we can take isuppose that δ is in the interval [κ1,j(κ)). We know δ = j0112:V-->M(f)(κ1 and k) for some function f on κ1 in M1. We also know f = j j01(F)(κ) for some F in V. Thus, δ = restricted to Mj(F)(κ, κ1). In Y, let (α,β) be the smallest pair with δ = j(F)(α,β). It cannot be that both are below κ1, andsince this will map elementarilywould be inside into Mran(j212 with j) and so the least pair must have β = κ021 = k.i Thus, δ generates κ1, which we already observed generates κ. But

To summarize, every ordinal in thisthe interval case1, we have N = Mj(κ)) generates κ1, which generates all the ordinals β in [κ,κ1), any of which generate κ and all the other such β.

This is enough to answer your question. The k " N in your question is just an arbitrary elementary substructure of jM012 "containing ran(j), so suppose we have Y elementary in M12 and ran(j) subset Y.

This The case Y = ran(j) is not equal to anyone of the sets on your listcases. It isOtherwise, Y has something not jin ran(j). Every object in M022 " V, since it includeshas form j(h)(κ,κ011) for some function h, so by looking at the smallest pair of ordinals to generate a given object with j(h), we see that there must be ordinals below j(κ) in Y. It is not jIf Y contains any ordinal δ in the interval [κ121 ",j(κ)), then it will Mcontain both κ and κ1, since it does not include κwe observed that any such δ generates these ordinals. And it isIn notthis case, Y = M2, since those two ordinals generate everything. So we assume that Y contains no such δ. In this last case, Y must contain some ordinal β in the interval [κ,κ1). Since any such β generates κ, Y contains all such ordinals. It follows that ran(j12) subset Y and in fact = Y, since if Y contained anything more it is not transitivewould have to have an additional ordinal δ in [κ1,j(κ)).

A much more interesting follow-upSo we've seen that your three cases are the only possibilities. And like your previous question, there is whether theno factorings arising inneed to assume that Y or N is somehow internally definable.

By the commuting square are exhaustiveway, and I will give this somewas a problem that I had solved many years ago for my dissertation, although perhaps other people had also thought about it. I think it may be thewas interested in understanding casewhich pairs of ordinals (α,β) generate product measures via an embedding j, and this question is very much related to that if you add.

(Click the edit history to see my extraprevious answer, which was just about the case when μ1 is in the range of j01, thena case for which the listanswer is exhaustive.. no.)

This is an excellent and interesting question! You are asking whether the 2-step iteration of a normal measure μ on a measurable cardinal κ is uniquely factored by the steps of the iteration itself.

(I think I have just been exchanging email with you--or perhaps with one of your colleagues, with a different name?--about the one-dimensional version of this question.)

My answer is that No, you haven't quite got all the possibilities. The reason is that actually, there is a commuting square of elementary embeddings for the 2-step iteration, as follows. The ultrapower j02 is just the ultrapower of V by the measure μ x μ, and it is a standard model-theoretic fact that the ultrapower of any structure by a product measure μ x ν is to first take the ultrapower by ν, and then take the ultrapower by μ. The lower half of the square is the iteration you have defined, with the diagonal being j02. The upper half of the square is that j02 is also equal to the composition j01.j01. This is not obvious, but it can be verified by proving the model-theoretic fact that I mentioned. Thus, we can take i = j01:V-->M1 and k = j01 restricted to M1, and this will map elementarily into M2 with j02 = k.i. But in this case, we have N = M1 and k " N is just j01 " M1.

This is not equal to any of the sets on your list. It is not j02 " V, since it includes j01(κ). It is not j12 " M1 since it does not include κ. And it is not M2 since it is not transitive.

A much more interesting follow-up question, is whether the factorings arising in the commuting square are exhaustive, and I will give this some thought. I think it may be the case that if you add my extra case, then the list is exhaustive...

This is an excellent and interesting question! You are asking whether the 2-step iteration of a normal measure μ on a measurable cardinal κ is uniquely factored by the steps of the iteration itself.

The answer is Yes.

Let me denote κ0 just by κ and j02 by j. Since μ1 is a measure in M1, it has the form j01(m)(κ), where m = (να | α < κ). Since you have said that μ1 is not in ran(j01), we may choose the να to be all different, and different from μ0. In this case, there is a partition of κ as the disjoint union of Xα, with Xα in να and none in μ0. Let x = (Xα | α < κ). Note that κ is not in j01(Xα) for any α < κ, and similarly κ1 is not in j(Xα). But κ is in j01(x)(β) for some β < κ1, since this is a partition of κ1. Apply j12 to conclude that κ1 is in j(x)(β) for this β. Thus, there is some β in the interval [κ, κ1) having the form β = j(f)(κ1) for the function f that picks the index. From this, it follows from normality of μ0 that we can write κ = j(g)(κ1) for some function g, since any β < κ1 generates κ via j01. In my favored terminology, the seed κ1 generates κ via j and in fact generates all β in [κ,κ1) via j.

Similarly, suppose that δ is in the interval [κ1,j(κ)). We know δ = j12(f)(κ1) for some function f on κ1 in M1. We also know f = j01(F)(κ) for some F in V. Thus, δ = j(F)(κ, κ1). In Y, let (α,β) be the smallest pair with δ = j(F)(α,β). It cannot be that both are below κ1, since this would be inside ran(j12) and so the least pair must have β = κ1. Thus, δ generates κ1, which we already observed generates κ.

To summarize, every ordinal in the interval 1,j(κ)) generates κ1, which generates all the ordinals β in [κ,κ1), any of which generate κ and all the other such β.

This is enough to answer your question. The k " N in your question is just an arbitrary elementary substructure of M2 containing ran(j), so suppose we have Y elementary in M2 and ran(j) subset Y. The case Y = ran(j) is one of your cases. Otherwise, Y has something not in ran(j). Every object in M2 has form j(h)(κ,κ1) for some function h, so by looking at the smallest pair of ordinals to generate a given object with j(h), we see that there must be ordinals below j(κ) in Y. If Y contains any ordinal δ in the interval [κ1,j(κ)), then it will contain both κ and κ1, since we observed that any such δ generates these ordinals. In this case, Y = M2, since those two ordinals generate everything. So we assume that Y contains no such δ. In this last case, Y must contain some ordinal β in the interval [κ,κ1). Since any such β generates κ, Y contains all such ordinals. It follows that ran(j12) subset Y and in fact = Y, since if Y contained anything more it would have to have an additional ordinal δ in [κ1,j(κ)).

So we've seen that your three cases are the only possibilities. And like your previous question, there is no need to assume that Y or N is somehow internally definable.

By the way, this was a problem that I had solved many years ago for my dissertation, although perhaps other people had also thought about it. I was interested in understanding which pairs of ordinals (α,β) generate product measures via an embedding j, and this question is very much related to that.

(Click the edit history to see my previous answer, which was just about the case when μ1 is in the range of j01, a case for which the answer is no.)

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Joel David Hamkins
  • 236.3k
  • 44
  • 777
  • 1.4k

This is an excellent and interesting question! You are asking whether the 2-step iteration of a normal measure μ on a measurable cardinal κ is uniquely factored by the steps of the iteration itself.

(I think I have just been exchanging email with you--or perhaps with one of your colleagues, with a different name?--about the one-dimensional version of this question.)

My answer is that No, you haven't quite got all the possibilities. The reason is that actually, there is a commuting square of elementary embeddings for the 2-step iteration, as follows. The ultrapower j02 is just the ultrapower of V by the measure μ x μ, and it is a standard model-theoretic fact that the ultrapower of any structure by a product measure μ x ν is to first take the ultrapower by ν, and then take the ultrapower by μ. The lower half of the square is the iteration you have defined, with the diagonal being j02. The upper half of the square is that j02 is also equal to the composition j01.j01. This is not obvious, but it can be verified by proving the model-theoretic fact that I mentioned. Thus, we can take i = j01:V-->M1 and k = j01 restricted to M1, and this will map elementarily into M2 with j02 = k.i. But in this case, we have N = M1 and k " N is just j01 " M1.

This is not equal to any of the sets on your list. It is not j02 " V, since it includes j01(κ). It is not j12 " M1 since it does not include κ. And it is not M2 since it is not transitive.

A much more interesting follow-up question, is whether the factorings arising in the commuting square are exhaustive, and I will give this some thought. I think it may be the case that if you add my extra case, then the list is exhaustive...