# For the symmetric group on an infinite set, is there a generating set of strictly smaller cardinality? [closed]

Let $S_{\kappa}$ denote the symmetric group on some set of cardinality $\kappa$. Does there exist a generating set $X \subset S_{\kappa}$ such that $|X| < |S_{\kappa}|$ ($\stackrel{?}{=} 2^{\kappa}$)?

More specifically, does there exist a countable set of generators for $S_{\mathbb{N}}$? And if so, can it be constructed without the Axiom of Choice?

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## closed as too localized by Bill Johnson, Mark Sapir, Gjergji Zaimi, Alain Valette, Martin BrandenburgNov 5 '11 at 14:50

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No: If a group has a countable generating set then it is countable. But there are uncountably many permutations of a countably infinite set. – Tom Goodwillie Nov 5 '11 at 1:13
And of course Tom's comment shows the general case, too (assuming AoC): a generating set of size $\omega$ gets you a group only as big as $\omega\cdot |\mathbb{N}|$. – Steve D Nov 5 '11 at 1:25
Why is a completely trivial question like this getting action? – Bill Johnson Nov 5 '11 at 4:06
This is not a research level question. Voted to close. – Mark Sapir Nov 5 '11 at 4:59
Just realised this myself. Sorry for wasting your internet. – Felix Denis Nov 5 '11 at 10:10

It seems clear that the answer to the first and third questions is 'no'. Indeed, if a set of generators $X$ is of infinite cardinality $\alpha$, then the group so generated cannot have cardinality greater than $\alpha$, since it is a quotient of the free group generated by $X$, which in turn is a quotient of the free monoid generated by $X\cup \{x^{-1}:x\in X\}$, and this free monoid has cardinality $\sum_{n\geq0}\alpha^n = \alpha$.

Well, to finish the claim, we need to check that the symmetric group $S_\kappa$ has cardinality $2^\kappa$ (the second question). This is certainly true: suppose given a well-ordering of $\kappa$. Then there are $\kappa^\kappa$ many permutations $f$ where $f(\alpha)$, for "even" $\alpha < \kappa$, is the least ordinal in the set $\kappa-f(\{\beta<\alpha\})$, and for "odd" $\alpha<\kappa$ is any element in $\kappa-f(\{\beta<\alpha\})$. ("Even" means a limit ordinal plus an even finite ordinal, and mutates mutandis for "odd".)

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It took me forever to type out this comment on this damned iPad that I'm stuck with since power went out in Connecticut. – Todd Trimble Nov 5 '11 at 2:01
+1 for still answering MO questions, even when the power's out! – Steve D Nov 5 '11 at 2:23

If the set is infinite then $S_{\kappa}$ and $X$ have the same cardinality.

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