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In his answer to user42090's mathoverflow question"Minimal Generalized Contnuum Hypothesis & Axiom of Choice", Prof. Hamkins writes:

"...one can build the analogue of the symmetric models for $\lnot$$AC$ above any cardinal, while preserving $GCH$ below..."

Are there any examples of such models in the literature which also satisfy the large cardinal axiom $I_0$ (which builds the symmetric model satisfying $\lnot$$AC$ above the '$I_0$ cardinals') , and how are these models constructed by forcing?

Also, if such models exist, can they serve as a 'laboratory' to study the behavior of $ZF$ beyond the '$AC$ barrier'?

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    $\begingroup$ What does your last paragraph mean? $\endgroup$ Sep 14, 2015 at 16:07
  • $\begingroup$ @NoahSchweber: As you correctly noted in the "EDITED FOR CLARITY" section in your answer, "...the $I_0$ axion depends only on the initial segment of the universe; so breaking choice above that segment won't affect things...". As you also correctly pointed out in your answer (the first paragraph, in fact) is that one needs to start "...with a model in which $\kappa$ has large cardinal axiom ( * ) [$I_0$, in this case], and then cause a failure of $AC$ sufficiently far above $\kappa$ that $\kappa$ still satisfies ( * ) [$I_0$] in the resulting model...". This suggests to me , since $GCH$ $\endgroup$ Sep 14, 2015 at 21:24
  • $\begingroup$ (cont.) implies $AC$, that $AC$ will hold for the initial segment of the model below $\kappa$ but fail sufficiently above $\kappa$ that $I_0$ holds. Since $I_0$ is, as far as I know, the largest 'large cardinal axiom' believed to be just short of inconsistency (at least for $ZFC$), the model you describe seems to, in some sense, have some clear line of demarcation between the regions where $AC$ holds, and $AC$ fails. In the region where $AC$ is "forced" to fail, one might control (via forcing) the behavior of the model so that one might: a) show that Reinhardt cardinals exist, or $\endgroup$ Sep 14, 2015 at 21:47
  • $\begingroup$ (cont.) b) show forth the "deep inconsistency" that proves Reinhardt cardinals inconsistent with $ZF$, and in general, study the behavior of $ZF$ 'beyond the $AC$ barrier'. In such manner, these models will act a a type of 'laboratory' in which to study such 'phenomena'. I hope that explains the meaning of my last paragraph. (Note: in the first section of my long comment, "axion" should, of course, read "axiom".) $\endgroup$ Sep 14, 2015 at 21:53

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I think there's a misunderstanding here: there is one method for building a model in which choice breaks, and the point is that to get a model in which choice fails and some large cardinal axiom $(*)$ holds, we start with a model in which $\kappa$ has $(*)$, and then cause a failure of AC sufficiently far above $\kappa$ that $\kappa$ still satisfies $(*)$ in the resulting model.

In this example, if there is an elementary embedding $j$ of $L(V_{\lambda+1})$ into itself with critical point below $\lambda$, then $j$ is also an elementary embedding of $L(W_{\lambda+1})$ into itself with critical point below $\lambda$ as long as $W$ is any forcing extension of $V$ such that $W_{\lambda+1}=V_{\lambda+1}$. So if we start with a $V\models I_0$, and add a failure of choice by taking a symmetric submodel of an extension of $V$ by a forcing which is sufficiently closed (so doesn't alter $V_{\lambda+1}$), the resulting model will still satisfy $I_0$.


EDITED FOR CLARITY: Note that all we're using is that the $I_0$ axiom depends only on an initial segment of the universe; so breaking choice above that segment won't affect things. This isn't entirely obvious, since unlike e.g. inaccessibility, the $I_0$ axiom seems to refer to a proper-class sized object - namely, $L(V_{\lambda+1})$ and the embedding $j$. However, the statement "$x\in L(y)$" is absolute, and so things are no more complicated (from a killing-choice-while-preserving-the-axiom point of view) than the case of $I_1$, which is explicitly about the set $V_\lambda$.

In principle, we could imagine variations on the $I_0$ axiom of the following form: "There is an elementary embedding of $M(V_{\lambda+1})$ into itself with critical point below $\lambda$," where "$M(-)$" is shorthand for "the class of $x$ such that $\varphi(x, -)$" for some $\varphi$. So long as $M(-)$ is always guaranteed to be an inner model, this could be interesting, and if (the formula $\varphi$ associated to) $M$ were sufficiently non-absolute, then there wouldn't be an obvious way to kill choice while preserving "$I_0(M)$". However, I'm unaware of anything interesting along these lines.

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