Given a cardinal k, what's the biggest dense linear order with a dense subset of size k? - MathOverflow most recent 30 from http://mathoverflow.net 2013-05-21T23:22:56Z http://mathoverflow.net/feeds/question/48231 http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/rdf http://mathoverflow.net/questions/48231/given-a-cardinal-k-whats-the-biggest-dense-linear-order-with-a-dense-subset-of Given a cardinal k, what's the biggest dense linear order with a dense subset of size k? Amit Kumar Gupta 2010-12-03T23:19:29Z 2010-12-05T00:34:39Z <p>It's not hard to show that for any cardinal $\kappa$, there is no dense linear order without endpoints (DLO) of size greater than $2^{\kappa}$ that has a dense subset of size $\kappa$. But one can show that if $\mu$ is the least cardinal such that $\kappa^{\mu} > \kappa$, then there's a DLO of size $\kappa^{\mu}$ with a dense subset of size $\kappa$, so in particular there's a dense linear order of size greater than $\kappa$ with a dense subset of size $\kappa$. Thus in models of GCH, the answer to the question in the title is "as big as possible." Also from ZFC alone, the case $\kappa = \omega$ also has the answer "as big as possible": just consider $\mathbb{Q}$ and $\mathbb{R}$. </p> <p>So the question is: <b>Is it consistent that for some $\kappa$, there is no DLO of size $2^{\kappa}$ with a dense subset of size $\kappa$?</b></p> <p>Apparently the answer's supposed to be "yes," and the relevant notion is that of a "Dedekind number," but searches for "Dedekind number" haven't yielded anything relevant, so if someone could point me to a relevent reference, that'd be great too.</p> <hr> <p>Unless I made a mistake, I've shown that a DLO $(L,\leq)$ is a DLO with a dense subset of size $\kappa$ iff it is (up to isomorphism) some set $X \subset \mathcal{P}(\kappa)$ ordered by inclusion such that $(X,\subseteq)$ satisfies the following property:</p> <blockquote> <p>$(*)\ \ \forall \alpha &lt; \kappa$, the set <code>$\{ x \in X : \alpha \notin x \}$</code> has a least upper bound, let's call it $x _{\alpha}$, in $(X,\subseteq)$</p> </blockquote> <p>Furthermore, I've shown that given $X \subset \mathcal{P}(\kappa)$ which is a DLO under inclusion (and $\cup X = \kappa$, and $|X| > \kappa$), it can be modified to give $X' \subset \mathcal{P}(\kappa)$ which is also a DLO under inclusion, has the same size as $X$, and has a dense subset of size $\kappa$: First, obtain $X_0$ from $X$ by removing, for each $\alpha &lt; \kappa$, the greatest lower bound in X (if it exists) of the collection <code>$\{x \in X : \alpha \in x\}$</code>; Next obtain $X'$ from $X_0$ by adding, for each $\alpha &lt; \kappa$, the set <code>$x _{\alpha} = \cup \{x \in X_0 : \alpha \notin x\}$</code>.</p> <p>So an equivalent reformulation of the question is: <b>Is it consistent that for some $\kappa$, there is no $X \subset \mathcal{P}(\kappa)$ of size $2^{\kappa}$ which forms a DLO under inclusion?</b></p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/48231/given-a-cardinal-k-whats-the-biggest-dense-linear-order-with-a-dense-subset-of/48330#48330 Answer by Andreas Blass for Given a cardinal k, what's the biggest dense linear order with a dense subset of size k? Andreas Blass 2010-12-05T00:34:39Z 2010-12-05T00:34:39Z <p>The supremum of the cardinalities of linear orders with a dense subset of size $\kappa$ is called $\rm{ded}(\kappa$) in Jerry Keisler's paper "Six classes of theories" (J. Australian Math. Soc. 21 (1976) 256-266), where it (along with its $\omega$th power) is part of the answer to a fundamental question in stability theory. I don't have access to the paper at the moment, but the review on MathSciNet mentions that (Keisler mentions that) Bill Mitchell showed the consistency of $(\rm{ded}(\omega_1))^\omega&lt;2^{\omega_1}$; the reference given there is Annals of Math. Logic 5 (1972) 21-46.</p>