Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? - MathOverflow most recent 30 from http://mathoverflow.net 2013-05-19T07:13:39Z http://mathoverflow.net/feeds/question/108331 http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/rdf http://mathoverflow.net/questions/108331/does-every-ellipse-inside-a-tetrahedron-inside-a-ball-fit-in-a-triangle-inside-th Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? Matt Pusey 2012-09-28T11:16:49Z 2012-10-08T15:02:40Z <p>In three-dimensional euclidean space, consider the closed unit ball $B$. Let $T$ be a tetrahedron, and $E$ an ellipse, with $E \subset T \subset B$. Does there necessarily exist a triangle $T'$ with $E \subset T' \subset B$?</p> <p>Clearly if 1 vertex of the tetrahedron is on one side of the plane of of the ellipse, and the other 3 vertices are on the other side, then intersecting the plane with the tetrahedron gives such a triangle. The interesting case is when 2 vertices of the tetrahedron are on each side of the plane.</p> <p>I work in quantum information theory, and have come up with a conjecture that, remarkably, is true if and only if the answer to the above question is "yes"! Since this is very far from the sort of thing I normally think about, I don't even know where to begin to look in the mathematics literature, so even just a pointer would be a big help.</p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/108331/does-every-ellipse-inside-a-tetrahedron-inside-a-ball-fit-in-a-triangle-inside-th/108342#108342 Answer by Joseph O'Rourke for Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? Joseph O'Rourke 2012-09-28T13:15:26Z 2012-09-28T13:15:26Z <p>A possible counterexample?: <br /> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <img src="http://cs.smith.edu/~orourke/MathOverflow/BallEllipseTriangle.jpg" alt="Triangle" /> <br /> The tetrahedron is nearly a flat rectangle (red), and the ellipse $E$ nearly fills it. Then I don't see how to enclose $E$ in a triangle that remains in the ball. Not a proof, I know...</p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/108331/does-every-ellipse-inside-a-tetrahedron-inside-a-ball-fit-in-a-triangle-inside-th/108355#108355 Answer by Gerhard Paseman for Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? Gerhard Paseman 2012-09-28T15:36:42Z 2012-09-28T15:36:42Z <p>I suspect the answer is yes. Let me paint a word picture, which won't be as beautiful as Joseph O'Rourke's contribution, but may be as useful.</p> <p>Consider all planes passing through the tetrahedron which are parallel to the plane of the ellipse. As Matt points out, the interesting case is when the ellipse lies in the cross-section of the tetrahedron that is not a triangle. I think one can use some Cavalieri type estimates to bound the size and shape of the rectangle to get an affirmative answer. Another idea is to reflect the tetrahedron across an angle bisecting plane which swaps two adjacent edges of the enclosing quadrilateral, and use that to construct a triangle which encloses the ellipse. Any such triangle which extends outside the original sphere says something about the tetrahedron, in which case it may be provable that another pair of edges can be used to construct the desired triangle.</p> <p>Another idea is that the vertex and two incident edges opposite a certain vertex of the bounding quadrilateral can represent a point on one of the tetrahedral edges and two lines on different faces, and that by "rotating" the tetrahedral edge, one can construct a bounding triangle tha stays within the bounding sphere.</p> <p>I hope these words are as suggestive as the picture, which I hope Joseph leaves up.</p> <p>Gerhard "Ask Me About Suggestive Writing" Paseman, 2012.09.28</p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/108331/does-every-ellipse-inside-a-tetrahedron-inside-a-ball-fit-in-a-triangle-inside-th/108638#108638 Answer by Karl Fabian for Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? Karl Fabian 2012-10-02T14:16:55Z 2012-10-04T00:22:00Z <p>Here is a bit of Mathematica code that rather supports Joseph's conclusion.</p> <p>Tet[phi_] := {{Sin[phi], 0, Cos[phi]}, {-Sin[phi], 0, Cos[phi]}, {0, Sin[phi], -Cos[phi]}, {0, -Sin[phi], -Cos[phi]}};</p> <p>Rect[a_, phi_] := Module[{x, y, u, w}, {x, y, u, w} = Tet[phi]; Polygon[{a x + (1 - a) u, a x + (1 - a) w, a y + (1 - a) w, a y + (1 - a) u}]];</p> <p>v = Subsets[Range[4], {3}];</p> <p>Manipulate[ Graphics3D[{Opacity[0.2], Sphere[{0, 0, 0}, 1], Opacity[0.3], GraphicsComplex[Tet[phi], Polygon[v]], Opacity[0.8], Rect[a, phi]}], {phi, 0, Pi/2}, {a, 0, 1}]</p> <p>Using parameters like a=0.9, phi=1.4 one obtains an elongated rectangle inscribed a flat tetrahedron, close to an equatorial plane. The maximal inscribed ellipse in this rectangle hardly is contained in any triangle that fits in the unit ball.</p> <p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/mrVYX.png" alt="rectangle in tetrahedron in sphere"></p> <p>Edit (2):</p> <p>The following improved version uses an analytic solution for tetrahedra $ABCD$ with $[AB]$ perpendicular to $[CD]$, and the maximal ellipse $E$ in a plane cutting $ABCD$ parallel to $[AB]$ and $[CD]$. In this case the maximal distance of the vertices of the smallest enclosing triangle $T'$ from the origin is </p> <p>$1 - 2 (1 - a) a (1 + \cos(\phi - \psi))\leq 1$ for $0 &lt; a &lt; 1$, </p> <p>where $A=(\sin \phi, 0, \cos\phi)$, , $B=(-\sin \phi, 0, \cos\phi)$ , $C=(0, \sin \psi, -\cos\psi)$, $D=(0, - \sin \psi, -\cos\psi)$. Thus in all these cases the triangle $T'$ lies inside $B$.</p> <p>I even think that all other (nontrivial) cases of $E\subset T$ can be reduced to one of the above cases by aligning two edges of the enclosing tetrahedron $T$ to lie along the principal axes of $E$, while keeping $E$ inside. But this I cannot prove yet.</p> <p>Code:</p> <p>Tet[phi_, psi_] := {{Sin[phi], 0, Cos[phi]}, {-Sin[phi], 0, Cos[phi]}, {0, Sin[psi], -Cos[psi]}, {0, -Sin[psi], -Cos[psi]}}; Rect[a_, phi_, psi_] := Module[{x, y, u, w}, {x, y, u, w} = Tet[phi, psi]; Polygon[{a x + (1 - a) u, a x + (1 - a) w, a y + (1 - a) w, a y + (1 - a) u}]]; v = Subsets[Range[4], {3}]; ParPl[a_, phi_, psi_] := ParametricPlot3D[{a Sin[phi] Cos[t], -(-1 + a) Sin[psi] Sin[t], a Cos[phi] + (-1 + a) Cos[psi]}, {t, 0, 2 Pi}, Boxed -> False, Axes -> False]; Tangent[a_, phi_, psi_, t_, lam_] := {a Sin[phi] Cos[t], -(-1 + a) Sin[psi] Sin[t], a Cos[phi] + (-1 + a) Cos[psi]} + lam {-a Sin[phi] Sin[t], (1 - a) Cos[t] Sin[psi], 0};</p> <p>Manipulate[ bt = 2 ArcTan[ 1 - (a Csc[psi] Sin[phi])/(-1 + a) - Sqrt[( a Csc[psi] Sin[phi] (2 - 2 a + a Csc[psi] Sin[phi]))/(-1 + a)^2]]; p1 = Tangent[a, phi, psi, bt, Cot[bt]]; p2 = Tangent[a, phi, psi, bt, -Sec[bt] - Tan[bt]]; p3 = {-1, 1, 1}*p2; Show[Graphics3D[{Opacity[0.2], Sphere[{0, 0, 0}, 1], Opacity[0.3], GraphicsComplex[Tet[phi, psi], Polygon[v]], Opacity[0.8], Rect[a, phi, psi], Green, Polygon[{p1, p2, p3}]}], ParPl[a, phi, psi]], {{phi, Pi/4}, 0, Pi/2}, {{psi, Pi/4}, 0, Pi}, {{a, 0.7}, 0, 1}]</p> <p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/4Ih33.png" alt="ellipse in tetrahedron in sphere with smallest enclosing triangle"></p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/108331/does-every-ellipse-inside-a-tetrahedron-inside-a-ball-fit-in-a-triangle-inside-th/108748#108748 Answer by Marcos Cossarini for Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? Marcos Cossarini 2012-10-03T21:07:38Z 2012-10-05T10:23:10Z <p>Some remarks (2012/10/3):</p> <p>(0) If the statement is true, then it is tight in the following example:</p> <p>Draw a circle A, that represents a slice of the ball.</p> <p>Inscribe inside A a square B, which represents a very thin tetrahedron.</p> <p>Inscribe inside B a square C joining the midpoints of the sides of B. This square represents the midbase of the tetrahedron.</p> <p>Inscribe inside C a circle D, which is the ellipsoid.</p> <p>In this case we have concentric circles with radius(A)=2radius(D), whicch is just enough to fit a triangle between A and D.</p> <p>This example makes the problem beautiful for me.</p> <p>(1) If the statement is true, then it is true also for the case in which the outer ball is generalised to an ellipsoid. Why? because by changing the inner product of the space, the ellipsoid turns into a ball. </p> <p>(2) So the context of our problem is affine geometry of $\mathbb R^3$ (that is, we can drop the inner product). In fact, we can drop even the affine structure and keep only the projective structure.</p> <p>(3) We can then settle a new inner product so that the ellipse is a circle.</p> <p>More remarks (2012/10/4):</p> <p>(4) We have an ellipse inside another one (the intersection between $B$ and the plane of the ellipse, and we are trying to fit a triangle between them. </p> <p>The problem of finding, given two conic sections, finding an $n$-side polygon circumscribed to the inner conic section and inscribed in the outer conic section is called "Poncelet's second problem" (Santaló, "Geometría proyectiva", p.243-245).</p> <p>Remarkably, if there exists a triangle that fits between both conic sections, then it is easy to find it: One can choose any point on the outer conic as vertex of the triangle, and the construction will work. See "Poncelet's porism" at <a href="http://sbseminar.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/poncelets-porism/" rel="nofollow">http://sbseminar.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/poncelets-porism/</a> . </p> <p>I will say that a conic <b> $n$-fits inside </b> another one iff an $n$-sided polygon can be fit between them.</p> <p>(5) By doing some projective transformations, I think the problem can be reduced to proving the following: Let $0\le a\le b\le 1$. Let $B$ be the cylinder $x^2+y^2\le 1$, $E$ the ellipse in the plane $z=0$ given by $(\frac xa)^2+(\frac yb)^2=1$. If there is a tetrahedron $T$ such that $E\subseteq T\subseteq B$, then there is a triangle $T'$ in the plane $z=0$ such that $E\subseteq T'\subseteq B$.</p> <p>I don't have a complete proof of this reduction, but I can give more details.</p> <p>(6) In the above situation, the existence of the triangle $T'$ is equivalent to the fact $a+b\leq 1$. This can be observed by trying to construct a triangle starting with a vertex in the $x$ axis. The starting point is irrelevant by remark (4).</p> <p>(7) By remarks (5) and (6), we have to prove that if a tetrahedron fits between the cylinder and the ellipse, then $a+b\leq 1$. To fully flatten the problem, we have to be able to recognise if a given quadrilateral surrounding our ellipse is the projection of a tetrahedron that surrounds the ellipse. If we are given the projection $ABCD$ of the vertexes of the tetrahedron, and the quadrilateral $PQRS$ where $T$ intersects the plane $z=0$ (with $P\in[A,B]$, $Q\in[B,C]$, etc), then we can see if the ellipse fits inside $PQRS$. But also, applying Ceva's theorem, it can be shown that $\frac{|P-A| |Q-B| |R-C| |S-D|}{|P-B| |Q-C| |R-D| |S-A|}=1$, and this equation can be used to confirm that the points $A,B,C,D,P,Q,R,S$ of the plane $z=0$ where indeed obtained from a tetrahedron by projecting on and intresecting with the plane $z=0$.</p> <p>(8) Some experiments that I did with the software GeoGebra suggest that an ellipse $A$ $3$-fits inside another ellipse $C$ iff there is an intermediate ellipse $B$ such that $A$ 4-fits inside $B$ and $B$ 4-fits inside $C$. I think that there is a path of ellipses joining $A$ and $C$, but to define it I would need a notion of $n$-fitting with $n$ non integer.</p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/108331/does-every-ellipse-inside-a-tetrahedron-inside-a-ball-fit-in-a-triangle-inside-th/109111#109111 Answer by zeb for Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? zeb 2012-10-08T03:46:11Z 2012-10-08T03:46:11Z <p>If we use Marcos Cossarini's reduction, this problem becomes an exercise in chasing cross ratios.</p> <p>Step 1: It's enough to show that if $A,B,C,D$ are points on a circle $\omega$, and if $P,Q,R,S$ are points on the segments $AB,BC,CD,DA$ respectively such that the lines $PQ$, $RS$, and $AC$ meet at a point - call it $M$ - outside the circle, then any ellipse contained in quadrilateral $PQRS$ is contained in a triangle contained in $\omega$. (The way I visualize this reduction is: start by employing a projective transformation to assume the ellipse is contained in a plane passing through the center of the sphere, then without loss of generality two of the vertices of the tetrahedron are below the plane of the ellipse and two are above. Then push the vertices out further until they are lying on the boundary of the cylinder perpendicular to the plane of the ellipse, and project them down. The point $M$ is the intersection of the line containing the vertices projecting onto $A$ and $C$ with the plane of the ellipse.)</p> <p>Step 2: By Poncelet's Porism, we may as well pick any line tangent to the ellipse as one of the lines of our triangle. So, I pick the line $PS$, and let $X$ and $Y$ be its intersections with the circle $\omega$, with $X$ closer to $P$ and $Y$ closer to $S$. Let $Z$ be the intersection of the other two tangents from $X$ and $Y$ to the ellipse. We just need to show that $Z$ is inside $\omega$, so we start by trying to find the locus of such $Z$.</p> <p>Let $U$ be the intersection of $XZ$ and $PQ$, let $V$ be the intersection of of $YZ$ and $SR$, and let $W$ be the intersection of $XR$ and $YQ$. Then the hexagon $XUQRVY$ has all six sides tangent to our ellipse, so by Brianchon's Theorem we see that the point $W$ is on the line $UV$. Now, the points $U$, $V$, $W$ are the intersections of the opposite sides of the hexagon $XZYQMR$, so by the converse to Pascal's Theorem the points $X$, $Y$, $Z$, $M$, $Q$, $R$ lie on a conic section, so the locus of $Z$s is an arc in a conic section.</p> <p>Step 3: I claim that the conic passing through $M,X,Y,Q,R$ - call it $\Omega$ - is tangent to the circle $\omega$ at the point $C$. Note that if this holds, then since two conics can intersect in at most four points, the arc $XCY$ of this conic section will be contained inside the circle $\omega$, so the claim finishes the problem. (In fact, the claim also gives us a construction for an equality case: take the inscribed ellipse of $PQRS$ that is also tangent to the line $XC$.)</p> <p>To see that the point $C$ is on the conic section $\Omega$, it suffices to verify that the cross ratio of the four lines $CX,CY,CQ,CR$ is the same as the cross ratio of the four lines $MX,MY,MQ,MR$. Intersecting with the conic $\omega$ passing through $C$, we see that the cross ratio of the four lines $CX,CY,CQ,CR$ is the cross ratio of the four points $X,Y,B,D$ with respect to the conic $\omega$. Projecting through the point $A$ lying on the conic $\omega$ onto the line $XY$, we see that this cross ratio is the same as the cross ratio between the four points $X,Y,P,S$. This cross ratio is the same as the cross ratio of the four lines $MX,MY,MP,MS$, which by definition are the four lines $MX,MY,MQ,MR$. We have demonstrated that $C$ is on the conic $\Omega$.</p> <p>Next, to see that $\Omega$ is tangent to the circle $\omega$ at $C$, it suffices to check that the cross ratio of the four points $A,C,X,Y$ with respect to $\omega$ is the same as the cross ratio of the four points $M,C,X,Y$ with respect to $\Omega$ (since when we project through the point $C$ which is on both conics, $A$ goes to $M$, $X$ and $Y$ go to themselves, and $C$ goes to the second intersection between $\Omega$ and the tangent to $C$ with respect to $\omega$). Let $I$ be the intersection of $CD$ and $XY$. Then projecting the points $A,C,X,Y$ through the point $D$ on the conic $\omega$ onto the line $XY$, we see that their cross ratio with respect to $\omega$ is the cross ratio of $S,I,X,Y$. Projecting through the point $R$ of the conic $\Omega$, we see that this is the same as the cross ratio of $M,C,X,Y$ with respect to the conic $\Omega$, so we are done.</p> <p>Step 4: Pray that there are no configuration issues in the above argument.</p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/108331/does-every-ellipse-inside-a-tetrahedron-inside-a-ball-fit-in-a-triangle-inside-th/109153#109153 Answer by Matt Pusey for Does every ellipse inside a tetrahedron inside a ball fit in a triangle inside the ball? Matt Pusey 2012-10-08T15:02:40Z 2012-10-08T15:02:40Z <p><a href="http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/controlledquantumdynamics/people/students/cohortthree/mihai-dorianvidrighin" rel="nofollow">Mihai-Dorian Vidrighin</a> has suggested the following idea. (He's asked me to post it because he can't post images.)</p> <p>For simplicity, assume that the setup is "tight" in that $E$ meets every face of $T$ and the vertices of $T$ are on the boundary of $B$. The generalisation should be straightforward.</p> <p>If any vertices of $T$ lie in the plane of $E$ then the cross-section is already a triangle, so assume otherwise. Pick an arbitrary vertex of $T$ and draw a cone staring from there with $E$ (shown in red) as a base. This cone meets the opposite face of $T$ in a new ellipse $E'$ (shown as a dotted black curve):</p> <p><img src="http://s9.postimage.org/wny1rlowv/Untitled_2.png" alt="Tetrahedron with ellipse and cone"></p> <p>$E'$ lies inside a triangle (the face of $T$), which itself lies inside a circle (the cross-section of $B$). By our simplifying assumption, $E'$ touches the edges of the triangle and the triangle's vertices are on the circle. Therefore <a href="http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PonceletsPorism.html" rel="nofollow">Poncelet's Porism</a> applies. Hence we can find a different triangle around $E'$ with one edge in the plane of $E$.</p> <p>Define a new tetrahedron (shown in green) using the chosen vertex of $T$ and the new triangle. By construction it still contains the cone identified before, and in particular it still contains $E$. But the cross-section in the plane of $E$ is now a triangle (shown in thick black).</p> <p><img src="http://s17.postimage.org/8m2y5xdwv/Untitled_3.png" alt="alt text"></p>