Rational Points on $y^2=x^3-86069^5$ - MathOverflow most recent 30 from http://mathoverflow.net 2013-05-23T06:28:32Z http://mathoverflow.net/feeds/question/105577 http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/2.5/rdf http://mathoverflow.net/questions/105577/rational-points-on-y2x3-860695 Rational Points on $y^2=x^3-86069^5$ Kevin Acres 2012-08-26T21:58:35Z 2012-09-25T00:06:09Z <p>The analytic rank of the Mordell elliptic curve $y^2=x^3-86069^5$ indicates that it has rank 2. However, deriving a set of generators, and hence the regulator, is proving to be a little bit of an intractable problem.</p> <p>I'm posting this question in the hope that someone may have investigated this curve already and, as such, may be able to help me out with some of the points on the curve.</p> <p>Any help with this would be very much appreciated.</p> <p>As further background, I have been involved in a small group searching for values of #Sha > 1 up through the ranks of Mordell curves, currently from ranks 0 to 9.</p> <p>To date we have been able to progress to a rank 9 curve were #Sha would seem to be at least equal to 9. The details of which may be seen at the <a href="https://listserv.nodak.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1208&amp;L=NMBRTHRY&amp;P=23667" rel="nofollow">NMBRTHRY Archives</a>. </p> <p>Kevin.</p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/105577/rational-points-on-y2x3-860695/105582#105582 Answer by Igor Rivin for Rational Points on $y^2=x^3-86069^5$ Igor Rivin 2012-08-26T22:43:40Z 2012-08-26T22:49:59Z <p>Take a look at <a href="http://mathoverflow.net/questions/42016/algorithms-for-finding-rational-points-on-an-elliptic-curve" rel="nofollow">this question and answers.</a> I am conjecturing that Cremona's mwrank (which, I believe, is available in sage) will find what you are looking for.</p> <p><strong>EDIT</strong> Yes, <a href="http://www.sagenb.org/doc/live/reference/sage/schemes/elliptic_curves/ell_rational_field.html" rel="nofollow">available in sage.</a></p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/105577/rational-points-on-y2x3-860695/105591#105591 Answer by Jamie Weigandt for Rational Points on $y^2=x^3-86069^5$ Jamie Weigandt 2012-08-27T01:12:39Z 2012-09-25T00:06:09Z <p>This particular curve, which I'll call $E$, may be quite challenging. The analytic rank is probably 2, but as far as I know, the only way to prove this is to show that the algebraic rank is not 0. Assuming the analytic rank is 2 and the full BSD formula, the product of the Regulator and the order of the Tate-Shafarevich group is approximately 1435241.110225344. (Using the command ConjecturalRegulator(E); in MAGMA). </p> <p>Since the the rank is probably 2, I would guess that the Shafarevich-Tate group is trivial, so that the regulator is quite large.</p> <p>In this case a 4-Descent was feasible. Below are the genus 1 curves in $\Bbb P^3$ that represent the elements of the $4$-Selmer group modulo torsion. If we can find points on these curves, they will map to points of infinite order on $E$.</p> <pre><code>&gt; E := EllipticCurve([0,-86069^5]); &gt; ConjecturalRegulator(E); 1435241.11022534407264592039437 2 &gt; TD := TwoDescent(E); &gt; SetClassGroupBounds("GRH"); &gt; time FD := [FourDescent(C) : C in TD]; Time: 3.890 &gt; FD; [ [ Curve over Rational Field defined by 15*x1^2 + 111*x1*x2 + 4*x1*x3 + 10*x1*x4 - 38*x2^2 - 95*x2*x3 + 67*x2*x4 - 54*x3^2 - 14*x3*x4 - 71*x4^2, 31*x1^2 - 71*x1*x2 - 69*x1*x3 - 23*x1*x4 + 9*x2^2 - 92*x2*x3 - 24*x2*x4 + 35*x3^2 - 148*x3*x4 + 168*x4^2, Curve over Rational Field defined by 35*x1^2 + 26*x1*x2 + 41*x1*x3 + 61*x1*x4 + 54*x2^2 + 11*x2*x3 + 25*x2*x4 + 68*x3^2 + 3*x3*x4 - 78*x4^2, 36*x1^2 - 138*x1*x2 - 38*x1*x3 + 127*x1*x4 + 25*x2^2 + 42*x2*x3 + 47*x2*x4 + 81*x3^2 - 12*x3*x4 + 60*x4^2 ], [ Curve over Rational Field defined by 21*x1^2 + 13*x1*x2 + 13*x1*x3 + 44*x1*x4 - 32*x2^2 - x2*x3 - 18*x2*x4 - 45*x3^2 + 24*x3*x4 - 238*x4^2, 5*x1^2 - 14*x1*x2 + 122*x1*x3 + 268*x1*x4 + 26*x2^2 + 6*x2*x3 + 149*x2*x4 - 57*x3^2 - 23*x3*x4 - 78*x4^2, Curve over Rational Field defined by 4*x1^2 + 49*x1*x2 + 34*x1*x3 + 26*x1*x4 + 26*x2^2 - 33*x2*x3 - 74*x2*x4 + 53*x3^2 - 74*x3*x4 + 111*x4^2, 38*x1^2 - 84*x1*x2 + 3*x1*x3 - 88*x1*x4 - 29*x2^2 + 27*x2*x3 - 154*x2*x4 + 5*x3^2 - 234*x3*x4 - 120*x4^2 ], [ Curve over Rational Field defined by 7*x1^2 + 78*x1*x2 + 106*x1*x3 + 62*x1*x4 - 21*x2^2 - 26*x2*x3 + 22*x2*x4 + 34*x3^2 - 25*x3*x4 - 118*x4^2, 33*x1^2 + 2*x1*x2 - 14*x1*x3 + 106*x1*x4 + 48*x2^2 - 33*x2*x3 + 165*x2*x4 + 69*x3^2 + 31*x3*x4 - 26*x4^2, Curve over Rational Field defined by 7*x1^2 + 46*x1*x2 + 33*x1*x3 + 23*x1*x4 + 13*x2^2 + 36*x2*x3 - 108*x2*x4 - 69*x3^2 - 88*x3*x4 + 145*x4^2, 19*x1^2 - 28*x1*x2 - 14*x1*x3 + 8*x1*x4 + 150*x2^2 - 52*x2*x3 + 190*x2*x4 - 46*x3^2 + 33*x3*x4 + 248*x4^2 ] ] </code></pre> <p>I searched for points on these curves up to height $10^9$ and didn't find any, which isn't that surprising given that the regulator is probably so large. Maybe an $8$- $9$- or $12$-descent would help, but I'm not sure since the regulator looks to be so large.</p> <p>I've come across a lot of curves like this one, and honestly I don't know what to do other than spend a great deal of time implementing higher and higher descents, which will require better and better architecture for working with algebraic number fields.</p> <p>Finding points on curves with rank at least 2 is much harder than the rank 1 case, where a non-torsion Heegner point can be constructed. I've often wondered if the notion of visibility of Mordell-Weil groups could be useful here to prove that the rank is 2. There might be some hope since this curve is just a sextic twist of a very simple elliptic curve, but I have no idea what other abelian variety one would try to use to "visualize" the Mordell-Weil group.</p> <p>EDIT: Found a rational point!</p> <p>Since this is a Mordell curve, it has a 3-isogeny. So ThreeDescentByIsogeny(E); works in magma. This, together with the 4-Descent above, can be patched together with Tom Fisher's 12-Descent code. Running PointSearch(C, 10^15) on all the 12-covers, I found one rational point on a 12-cover. This maps back to the HUGE point $P = (r/t^2, s/t^3) \in E(\Bbb Q)$ where</p> <p>$$t = 1064315237527062416197829497356636659645269584461099593669088031745089037672135800872679057089531240249644479256790731579010363138838881840905955995370777995601208434305913644468575606,$$</p> <p>$$r = 280330358182289626756155234063598323321079390462341827366518987565228009421332474964681906370265513552399459534408574388270067641670339702167066942312699829200035334349465315027488431491497462250163493458119988220147933027219004129214673758569410719992144923411319943555067857245550021843686621974171705862665984304126540657354963027685841117202627482318291749321065520239017,$$</p> <p>and </p> <p>$$s = -3894169495021322706664690332034015776766200723677334488117565017206832575610394605401029654682981124772659459298812689312208671041841435640288530899795853801784491292694434680924857836480106291120205903428248497270005655966231499766892812223437056078000735443855989892506051021805114412318184420256429821942583648074219767873044937972437645324252633026228735728785740079828040374108087622426272823877167554852034435686184476368398239806496596492675365799418315372050294056476779196364271993469777717240193414071588739725730054647942389914059081838403974737198837$$ </p> <p>Magma (and sage) says the canonical height of $P$ is 862.589016739449. $P$ has infinite order and is not a multiple of another point.</p> <p>I'll keep looking for more points on 12-covers, but there should be a smarter way to look for a second generator since we know conjecturally what the regulator is supposed to be, at least up to division by an integer square (the order of Sha).</p> <p>Second Edit: Second generator found by Tom Fisher!</p> <p>I received email from Tom Fisher who got wind of this example thanks to Kevin Acres and Mark Watkins. He used some more careful minimization techniques for 12-covers which made it much easier for him to find the second generator $Q = (u/w^2, v/w^3)$ where</p> <p>$$w = 182114807484521200807106885195433046250677033531559359037472093313104122418454868285361195199297225042175078422885282555317033956772998359062866824462985656413093380882725866443379879289096885109176415930832786071510257551923931848041894889001647111552913336376307990237676516910188887260245394301062683134535223719019999940520792408074037957510825778941886955164545102$$</p> <p>$$u = 6409818948420000148009253515371033320765674658334995509069337486116156301741657451140832523716129416946553724548364793698626405777843956622076380997023235142487299844326278568312577933328949209325079504842164930964499614652180484249884310193722360960206856049327696413372088438499522988880226096525828673972002212550418445757426791463589511241682169507191857404060127705996714164059762587639453970388047710151991644286292989545241436751637355865317439825495449344823977758797766025325026099986880721224779341838599953004314077314458400203457162779096001177667625960285991372461677348744634118572760595736047817251613300845834732694598202906328385669708044981270667425075403152129513088853355196780998723571290752400352784381236905647783762282233$$</p> <p>$$v = 9541721267275526440336656075081968921795973155189044266523956895286489666750185996900611973660561530367870689843326743006933458752307224811373451969681421106849987021781748740069623362388923316032840282833074591791294185661671902447470420594105932470690611184875968605655279379274234568020070054315280341961704988604471445169462057158108739193383808091705876229256447451432215635271166605138776098284834213663487614216411244364417456782497135614069447487775516105502956819954881548171764933506408613533330700718054166278531808088754093650937927404096948372079871885150489168059803000137727292308698902319300888120656605108547686297443217509881949442132801485412503095358513515604711600740777338910658971774981045705755311582771691405245163713860189075823123694400673272454942433819801867842344237200886745700934179591344744409814700762619336056693409131813436072830610006822421568399180878828865624130779460438617259828853398661927306856293129558704629256045989464076110208592569978237366668166654822438426674566555490387538893656476099175185704061248678944708728574308512767720849000403950411614279621166869036373101$$</p> <p>This height of $Q$ is 1715.46805605884712533431816634 and the regulator is actually 1435241.11022534407264592039437 as BSD predicts if Sha(E/Q) is trivial.</p> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/105577/rational-points-on-y2x3-860695/108014#108014 Answer by Kevin Acres for Rational Points on $y^2=x^3-86069^5$ Kevin Acres 2012-09-25T00:04:10Z 2012-09-25T00:04:10Z <p>Tom A. Fisher has kindly identified the second generator for this curve, at a height of $1715.46805605884712533431816634$, and with a regulator of $1435241.11022534407264592039437$.</p> <p>Many thanks to Tom for this impressive workout of his 12 descent code.</p> <p>P2:= E![6409818948420000148009253515371033320765674658334995\ 509069337486116156301741657451140832523716129416946553724548\ 364793698626405777843956622076380997023235142487299844326278\ 568312577933328949209325079504842164930964499614652180484249\ 884310193722360960206856049327696413372088438499522988880226\ 096525828673972002212550418445757426791463589511241682169507\ 191857404060127705996714164059762587639453970388047710151991\ 644286292989545241436751637355865317439825495449344823977758\ 797766025325026099986880721224779341838599953004314077314458\ 400203457162779096001177667625960285991372461677348744634118\ 572760595736047817251613300845834732694598202906328385669708\ 044981270667425075403152129513088853355196780998723571290752\ 400352784381236905647783762282233/33165803105124219179549823\ 283035686736456675469805935767692444023551658331570872880192\ 989613282702564119725223095907264020401187622726619827641022\ 070312051693797896281152446136738277971480729817095517412821\ 500028443753503375569153920181215330943019021452618523429306\ 154890615692258509116181263907011892227215259838198394721409\ 844161749103601296315808769202168882630133040496609244967027\ 573328564357038779635203477380317914882271609699042932772428\ 958728775525114597825318245131110925771677312456670934287090\ 438610192382893431121092876711361026457071789640268657157836\ 261872615922281539370618784278612205624356072354848973487567\ 580677872395212361402429095761079520397611920420171112702594\ 975559992623826579984003799616507192963910592190404, 9541721\ 267275526440336656075081968921795973155189044266523956895286\ 489666750185996900611973660561530367870689843326743006933458\ 752307224811373451969681421106849987021781748740069623362388\ 923316032840282833074591791294185661671902447470420594105932\ 470690611184875968605655279379274234568020070054315280341961\ 704988604471445169462057158108739193383808091705876229256447\ 451432215635271166605138776098284834213663487614216411244364\ 417456782497135614069447487775516105502956819954881548171764\ 933506408613533330700718054166278531808088754093650937927404\ 096948372079871885150489168059803000137727292308698902319300\ 888120656605108547686297443217509881949442132801485412503095\ 358513515604711600740777338910658971774981045705755311582771\ 691405245163713860189075823123694400673272454942433819801867\ 842344237200886745700934179591344744409814700762619336056693\ 409131813436072830610006822421568399180878828865624130779460\ 438617259828853398661927306856293129558704629256045989464076\ 110208592569978237366668166654822438426674566555490387538893\ 656476099175185704061248678944708728574308512767720849000403\ 950411614279621166869036373101/60399838475592326331362752791\ 944763132549609694041832059854653129731539771658328168942361\ 906568116204357279114901731638612673017179392637587993370268\ 468122751057317804766338855060441224492531078338764563745984\ 361634534757917619567424588718030226164336198810659807830928\ 894950054794919605549933531685874245309484554173084344795097\ 778895379979816703495608964775949909264616094661840599063186\ 011543131081083532339588386281198484224591916139857808728711\ 337072945237794430249025950156217838942697194548707342214906\ 621985660080150918372835213775235759078837614090802954692490\ 955558620434772673319859076612900166605163593210918785877475\ 268380688613826217264936422758722358549436515729050089664820\ 517090881544523313666983596465352462319026753145000093740537\ 178177489596826835806901560570709618578068241711965931639634\ 809586146278457253570314819921037995164438751876277090234639\ 821432381946017446571917916673348009411849176259307380401023\ 993294177103548682416638846438507436013936091382661874934845\ 500838177629920215935612770414110473755964022901968320874940\ 92431878821676880656612635392756954758754490670429601208 ];</p>